Is the bunt fair or foul?

[Gre144]

Batter runner bunts the ball down the 3rd baseline. The ball stops right next to the foul line but does not touch the foul line. However, part of the ball is over fair territory but is not physically touching fair ground. Is it a fair ball?

[BJ Moose]

Fair of course, regardless what any technical defn may determine.

You're sitch can only really happen on glass-flat astroturf and a painted line with a razor sharp edge and a perfect round ball. But what you described, from the OVERHEAD camera, the ball is "touching" as in has broken the plane of the outer edge of the painted foul (fair) line...

The hands are still part of the bat, after all.

from the GLOBAL HDQTRS
EWS

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gre144
Batter runner bunts the ball down the 3rd baseline. The ball stops right next to the foul line but does not touch the foul line. However, part of the ball is over fair territory but is not physically touching fair ground. Is it a fair ball?

I would call the ball foul since I cannot conceive of trying to decide if a bounding ball went by third and "broke the plane" of the bag as it went past the base.

BUT: Richard Fetchiet, the rules interpreter for the NCAA, on 4/20/01 ruled that a ball as you describe is a FAIR BALL at their level.

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I would call the ball foul since I cannot conceive of trying to decide if a bounding ball went by third and "broke the plane" of the bag as it went past the base.

BUT: Richard Fetchiet, the rules interpreter for the NCAA, on 4/20/01 ruled that a ball as you describe is a FAIR BALL at their level.

I'm referring to a bunted ball that stops before third with the ball touching foul territory but part ball being over fair territory.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gre144

I'm referring to a bunted ball that stops before third with the ball touching foul territory but part ball being over fair territory.

Yes, I understand, and what I said was: I'd call it foul... "BUT: Richard Fetchiet, the rules interpreter for the NCAA, on 4/20/01 ruled that a ball as you describe is a FAIR BALL at their level."

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Gre144
Batter runner bunts the ball down the 3rd baseline. The ball stops right next to the foul line but does not touch the foul line. However, part of the ball is over fair territory but is not physically touching fair ground. Is it a fair ball?

Have tried to visualize this situtation, but
really having problem. Is ball suspended? You
say not touching foul line and not touching
fair ground. Y'all playing with a ballon???

glen

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Have tried to visualize this situtation, but
really having problem. Is ball suspended? You
say not touching foul line and not touching
fair ground. Y'all playing with a ballon???

glen

Glen: This is a scenario that came up back in the 80s in a minor league setting. B1 bunts, the ball stops rolling, and B-R is "safe" at first.

But wait.... Is the ball fair or foul?

The plate umpire in the minor league game got down on all fours to examine the ball. No part of the ball was touching the chalk. But, because of the curvature of the ball, part of it was "breaking the plane" of the foul line.

I just did an experiment in my kitchen, using a tile grout as the foul line. I calculate that upwards of a half-inch of the ball extended ACROSS into fair territory. (Remember, ALL of the foul line is fair.)

I'm serching through my records to find out what the minor league umpire ruled.

I still think it's a foul ball, but in a college game....

[mick]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump

Have tried to visualize this situtation, but
really having problem. Is ball suspended? You
say not touching foul line and not touching
fair ground. Y'all playing with a ballon???

glen

Gre144,
Horizontal tangent is touching foul.
Inside vertical tangent intersects chalk.

I'm with Carl. I'd like to call foul because it is touching foul, and not touching fair.
mick

[BJ Moose]

Respectfull submitted of course, but you guys are whacky. I can visualize this easily.. you will have a ball that an entire set of stands will SEE as "touching" the painted foul (fair) line on the astroturf. Who cares a bleep if it is TOUCHING.. who the hell would know.

Call this FAIR and there is no (little) argument. Call this FOUL, and if the offended coach sees it like you do... your gonna get an earful (deservedly so).

HEY, get that coach back in the coaches box... geez.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick .

I'm with Carl. I'd like to call foul because it is touching foul, and not touching fair.
mick

[Bfair]

Originally posted by BJ Moose

Call this FAIR and there is no (little) argument. Call this FOUL, and if the offended coach sees it like you do... your gonna get an earful (deservedly so).

HEY, get that coach back in the coaches box... geez.

Get realistic, Moose. Have you forgotten how this game is played. On a ball this close that 3B coach thinks this is a fair ball if the batter can beat it out and a foul ball if he can't. Be consistent like he is!!!
Learn the game !!! ;-)

Freix

[Rich Ives]

If the last 1/4" of a fly ball hits the foul pole and the ball glances off the foul pole to the foul side, it's a home run isn't? Other than the distance travelled, what's the difference here?

[blarson]

I've always called this fair. It's been my belief that if any part of the ball is over fair territory it's fair. I've had balls settle this way and never had a gripe about the call. Have even gotten a good call from the guy it went against.

I'd be interested to see if CC comes up w/ anything that backs me up or if I've been wrong all these years.

Bob

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
If the last 1/4" of a fly ball hits the foul pole and the ball glances off the foul pole to the foul side, it's a home run isn't? Other than the distance travelled, what's the difference here?

Rich:

I am simply amazed at this discussion. Obviously, a ball that HITS the foul pole is a fair ball. (Duh!) A ball that hits a chalk line beyond the base is a fair ball. A ball that stops rolling in front of the base is a fair ball if it's touching the line.

But we're talking about a ball that "breaks the plane" of the foul line WITHOUT TOUCHING IT.

Blarson said that he's "always" called such a ball fair. In nearly 50 years of baseball, that's the most intriguing statement I've ever heard about the game, for in that time I have never seen a ball stop in such a position, and I have never spoken to any umpire who has. BLarson, the minor league umpire reported in Referee, and the originator of this thread stand alone in my experience.

Once we admit that a ball can be fair without touching the line because part of it sticks OVER the line, what will we say to the coach who claims that the batted ball broke the plane as it passed over third base? Remember, we're talking at most about a half inch viewed by an umpire from 90 feet away.

Fellows: We cannot begin to deal in microcentimeters. A ball that kicks up chalk is easy to call. Right? Even worse: Imagine how to explain to a defensive coach that a ball that passed to the left of the foul pole in left field is a fair ball, home run, because as it passed it broke the plane of the pole.

After reflection, I come to the conclusion this thread is a joke. Right? You're yanking my chain. Right?

[Gee]

I'd have to go along withe the fair ball call. A fair ball is a ball that passes OVER fair territory when passing first or third base.

OK, it didn't pass first or third base but stopped short OVER fair ball territory. It doesn't have to touch fair ball territory. It doesn't say the whole ball has to be over the base on fair territory. If it breaks the plane, which this did, I've got it fair and in play.

BTW if you want to see the umpire down on all fours examining the ball on the foul line, check out the Norman Rockwell collection. He painted it. G.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Gee
BTW if you want to see the umpire down on all fours examining the ball on the foul line, check out the Norman Rockwell collection. He painted it. G.

Gee: The major league umpire is trying to determine if the ball is TOUCHING the foul line.

Give me a break. You're 70 years old and from home plate you could not tell if the rightside quadrant of a batted ball broke the plane of the leftside quadrant of the foul line at the bag. You couldn't do it if you were 18. Ted Williams (20/10) couldn't do it in his prime. It's ridiculous to discuss it further, and I bow out now.

BTW: How do you stand on a batted ball that passes through the plane of the foul pole (but doesn't touch it) and over the fence? Home run, Gee?