Do you count the run?

[BigUmp56]

It doesn't have to be an action by the batter. This had to be ball four before it became a passed ball, so any advance or run would be nullified.

6.07(b)When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out, and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first pitch to the next batter of either team, or before any play or attempted play, the umpire shall (1) declare the proper batter out; and (2) nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

NOTE: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, illegal pitch, balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.


Tim.

[RPatrino]

Tim:

Does item (2) here refer to advances or scores due to runner's being FORCED to advance due to actions by the improper batter?

Bob P.

[BigUmp56]

I don't think so, Bob. It comes down to a matter of judgment. You would have to ask yourself whether or not the advance of R3 was on the passed ball or the base on balls award. I would be hard pressed to assume either and return R3 regardless. The logic being that the base award preceeded the passed ball.


Here's what the J/R says.

J/R

Any runner who advanced because of the improper batters batted ball or award must return to his TOP base. A runner who advanced for some other reason (wild pick-off throw, overthrow, wild pitch, balk) is allowed his advance.


Tim.

[RPatrino]

Tim,

Thanks for the J/R reference. I would lean toward NOT allowing the run.

Bob P.

[LMan]

I agree, the pitch was a ball (not a strike) prior to its becoming a wild pitch/passed ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I don't think so, Bob. It comes down to a matter of judgment. You would have to ask yourself whether or not the advance of R3 was on the passed ball or the base on balls award. I would be hard pressed to assume either and return R3 regardless. The logic being that the base award preceeded the passed ball.


Here's what the J/R says.

J/R

Any runner who advanced because of the improper batters batted ball or award must return to his TOP base. A runner who advanced for some other reason (wild pick-off throw, overthrow, wild pitch, balk) is allowed his advance.


Tim.

So, did R3 advance *BECAUSE* of the walk or *FOR SOME OTHER REASON* (that, coincidentally was *during* / also resulted in the walk)?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

So, did R3 advance *BECAUSE* of the walk or *FOR SOME OTHER REASON* (that, coincidentally was *during* / also resulted in the walk)?

I think everyone is still misreading this as I originally did. There is a runner at 3rd base only, with no force situation, so the base on balls did not advance the runner, the wild-pitch did. I have changed my opinion and now believe that the run should count.

[jxt127]

I'll vote for no run. Batter was put out (technically) before reaching 1st base for the 3rd out of the inning.

[mbyron]

I agree that the run does not score. Clearly, R3 did not advance because of the walk (no force). Hence, R3 advanced for "some other reason," which would ordinarily allow the run to count (if only 1 were out, for instance).

But with 2 outs, the issue becomes: when does the inning end? Is the out called for BOO like the batter being out before reaching 1B (no run scores) or more like R1 being picked off (since R1 was, after all, walked, score the run).

I think it's more like BR being out before reaching 1B. Although the batter was walked, he was an improper batter, and we don't penalize the defense for that (or reward the offense). I'm not convinced that the correct batter is "technically" out before reaching 1B, since the rules don't explicitly provide for that.

But the logic seems correct: I would say that the inning ended when the proper batter was called out. There was no intervening play or pitch (or the newly proper batter would be on 1B), and so clearly the proper batter failed to reach 1B, and so the run could not score because the inning was over.

[mcrowder]

Why are we voting... this is absurd. No run - by rule. (Now, make this the 2nd or 1st out, and the run scores. An advance on a 4th ball by a non-forced runner, and no "play" made on the BR, is a legal advance as it was not DUE TO the BB, but merely coincidental to the BB.)

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

This would be for a bases loaded situation, hence the words force to advance.

In the words of Tee, why do ya'll make it so hard.

First, there is no mention of 'forced to advance' in either the rule itself or the authoritative resources.

Second, I guess we like to make it so 'hard' because we, unlike you, don't like to guess at what a rule means. In this thread you see some pretty darn smart men having an intelligent discussion on this topic. If you feel this applies only to a force play, please provide an approved ruling or caseplay to support your position. The MLBUM further demonstrates that no run can score here.

MLBUM

In addition to the preceding approved rulings regarding appeal plays, the examples and plays found in the Casebook Comments to Official Baseball Rule 4.09 also pertain to appeal plays. In particular, plays found in that section of the Official Baseball Rules demonstrate the following three concepts:

(1) No run shall score during a play in which the third out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base.

(2) No run shall score during a play in which the third out is a force out.

(3) Following runners are not affected by an act of a preceding runner unless two are out.


Then again, you might be thinking of this MLBUM ruling.

MLBUM


5.14 RUNNER FORCED HOME ALLOWED TO SCORE AFTER THIRD OUT
A runner forced to advance without liability to be put out may advance past the base to which he is entitled only at his peril. If such a runner, forced to advance, is put out for the third out before a preceding runner, also forced to advance, touches home plate, the run shall score. (See Casebook Comments to Official Baseball Rule 7.04(b).


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

The only way the run would score on an advance unrelated to the improper batters advance to first would be with less than two outs. This play has two outs and no run can score if the third out is made before the batter obtains first base. No run scores on this play.


Tim.

I still say the run counts, and that PWL is correct. The third out was certainly not made before the batter had obtained first base. Where do you get that? The improper batter was called out on appeal. That is after he had obtained first base, legally or illegally. J/R says that if the run scored on the wild pitch during the improper batter's at bat, then the run counts.

[BigUmp56]

Steve:

He legally completed his time at bat as soon as he took ball four, so the advance was not during his time at bat. And, as the third out was an appeal his illegal touch of first base is the third out of the inning. Again, no run can score if the third out is made before the batter-runner legally touched first base.

Tim.

[bossman72]

FED says no run on the BOO

Check out case book 7.2.1 C

[mcrowder]

We have some really smart people saying some really dumb things.

Why does it keep coming up that the improper batter was put out at all (much less the mentions of when). The improper batter was not put out at all!!! The PROPER batter was called out on appeal for the 3rd out BEFORE HE REACHED FIRST BASE (heck... before he reached the batters box!). How much more crystal could this be. The confusion above stems solely from the fact that you guys are calling the wrong player out.