The AMLU's Birmingham Folly

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Now it seems that the more the public discovers about the situation, the more it sees that greed has played a major hand in this fiasco. Few of us have found fault with the individual umpires. The machine seems to be destroying those on board rather than those in the gun sights. Even the amateurs, who are targets of their terror, have weathered the storm.

I can't imagine what the 2/3 were thinking. PBUC is holding a Royal Flush and AMLU still thinks they can bluff them.

I had determined not to weigh in on this issue, but enough is enough.

Greed? This is a new low, even for WhatWuzThatBlue.

You call "greed" asking for a wage that's far, far below the poverty level?

Tell me: Which of you would work for $6500 for two-and-a-half months? Even though your family is eligible for food stamps, it would be next-to-impossible. Oh, you say, there's the off-season job. Right: You starve while you're working and then return to some job where you can take off for 10 weeks without losing your place in the pecking order. Not even a pizza delivery "boy" could do that.

The so-called "arbitrator's" offer was $100 raise and $2 more per diem, but the $500 deductible for insurance remained for the duration of the six-year contract.

Boys and girls, it's time for you to understand what's happening. The major advantage MiLB has is that umpires are ambitious. We want to move up, and apparently we're willing to do it at any cost. At least, that's what MiLB is banking on.

When the amateur umpiring in any small town improves, so do the players. That's undeniable. Major league clubs throw around millions. MILLIONS. They own minor league teams, but they do not support the minor leagues. According to Mike Fitzpatrick in his interview for Officiating.com, the umpire salaries are all paid from gate receipts and other local revenues of the various clubs.

But there's a huge, untaxed amount of money lying around that could be used to subsidize minor league umpires. Here, courtesy of USA Today, is a table showing the yearly payrolls of the major league teams:

Arizona Diamondbacks $60,000,000
Atlanta Braves $90,000,000
Baltimore Orioles $73,000,000
Boston Red Sox $120,000,000
Chicago Cubs $94,000,000
Chicago White Sox $103,000,000
Cincinnati Reds $61,000,000
Cleveland Indians $56,000,000
Colorado Rockies $41,000,000
Detroit Tigers $83,000,000
Florida Marlins $15,000,000
Houston Astros $93,000,000
Kansas City Royals $47,000,000
Los Angeles Angels $103,000,000
Los Angeles Dodgers $98,000,000
Milwaukee Brewers $58,000,000
Minnesota Twins $63,000,000
New York Mets $101,000,000
New York Yankees $195,000,000
Oakland Athletics $62,000,000
Philadelphia Phillies $88,000,000
Pittsburgh Pirates $47,000,000
San Diego Padres $70,000,000
San Francisco Giants $90,000,000
Seattle Mariners $88,000,000
St. Louis Cardinals $89,000,000
Tampa Bay Devil Rays $35,000,000
Texas Rangers $68,000,000
Toronto Blue Jays $72,000,000
Washington Nationals $63,000,000

That's a total of $2,326,000,000 PER YEAR. That's two BILLION, 326 MILLION dollars.

Let's levey a 1% tax on that sum, paid for out of the players' salaries. ONE PERCENT would raise $23,260,000. Assuming 220 minor league umpires, that works out to about $106,000 each. Add to that the current MiLB contribution, and you have the funds to maintain a stable of professional (and professionally paid) umpires.

You would have the very best umpires. The very best umpires in the minor leagues means the very best players in the major leagues.

I have been shocked by the amount of vitriol and animosity displayed here against a small band of courageous brothers. But we're like the lobsters in the barrel. As soon as one reaches the top, inches from escape and safety, the others pull him back down. "They" made it, and we didn't. We're still working 14u in the summer, JV in the spring.

Their success should be our success. Shame! For shame!

[DIV2ump]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

I had determined not to weigh in on this issue, but enough is enough.


Let's levey a 1% tax on that sum, paid for out of the players' salaries. ONE PERCENT would raise $23,260,000. Assuming 220 minor league umpires, that works out to about $106,000 each. Add to that the current MiLB contribution, and you have the funds to maintain a stable of professional (and professionally paid) umpires.

I understand your thoughts but MLB dumped the umpire program on the minors and told the minors to pay for it about ten years ago. Do you really think MLB wants spend money on it after getting rid of the umpire program?

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Let's levey a 1% tax on that sum, paid for out of the players' salaries. ONE PERCENT would raise $23,260,000. Assuming 220 minor league umpires, that works out to about $106,000 each. Add to that the current MiLB contribution, and you have the funds to maintain a stable of professional (and professionally paid) umpires.

So you want to take the money from MLB players and give it to the minor league umpires? You consider it the job of the MLB players to pay for the training of the umpires? Since you earn money from the sport of baseball maybe you should also pay a 1% tax on your earnings, isn’t that what your logic dictates?

While I support every person’s right to make as much money as they can it still boils down to a few basic things:
1. How important is their job to the industry? This is determined by the industry.
2. What is the supply and demand? Are there 1000’s of people trying for a couple of hundred jobs?

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

You would have the very best umpires. The very best umpires in the minor leagues means the very best players in the major leagues.

This is not a necessary correct. Paying someone more money doesn't make them better employees. If you double the minimum wage would you get your fries faster at the local fastfood joint?

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Their success should be our success. Shame! For shame!

I guess its shame, shame on me. I don't agree with you that the MLB players owe the umpires a living. I built a business without anyone giving me 1% of their salaries and there were years when I brought home less than these umpires do.

They are apprentices. They are in the minors learning their trade. To my understanding working in the minor leagues is not meant to be the end of a career path, it’s the beginning. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to reach your goals.

IMHO your plan hints of Socialism.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by DIV2ump

I understand your thoughts but MLB dumped the umpire program on the minors and told the minors to pay for it about ten years ago. Do you really think MLB wants spend money on it after getting rid of the umpire program?

You intimate they wouldn't, and you're probably right. MLB hates umpires. HATES them. But perhaps when the current agreement runs out, that could be one of the issues in negotiation.

Remember, my proposal is for a "tax" on the players' salaries. Alex Rodriguez can afford 1% a year, especially since it would be deductible. Remember, too, the players cannot do without the umpires. It's only right that they share some of the burden of paying them.

The fans would love this idea, and it would be a public relations disaster if the player's union opposed it. "ONE PERCENT," Joe says, while sipping on his Coors Lite. "I'm paying #$3.00 a gallon for gas, and they're griping about one percent?"

[DIV2ump]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

You intimate they wouldn't, and you're probably right. MLB hates umpires. HATES them. But perhaps when the current agreement runs out, that could be one of the issues in negotiation.

Remember, my proposal is for a "tax" on the players' salaries. Alex Rodriguez can afford 1% a year, especially since it would be deductible. Remember, too, the players cannot do without the umpires. It's only right that they share some of the burden of paying them.

The fans would love this idea, and it would be a public relations disaster if the player's union opposed it. "ONE PERCENT," Joe says, while sipping on his Coors Lite. "I'm paying #$3.00 a gallon for gas, and they're griping about one percent?"

Unfortunately cities and states all over the country have been on to this idea for a few years now and have passed "entertainment" taxes that tax pro athletes based on the number of days they spend in a city. This would be just another of these taxes but you're right, Joe Fan doesn't mind sticking the rich athletes with another tax. Tax returns for A-Rod and other pro players can run hundreds of pages because of all the schedules, etc. that have to be filed relating to these taxes all over the place. I've heard that part of the reason Clemens negotiated the deal where he wasn't required to all away games was to avoid some of these taxes.

I don't know that umpires should be making $106,000 when minor league gms and other staff are working for peanuts also.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by DIV2ump

Unfortunately cities and states all over the country have been on to this idea for a few years now and have passed "entertainment" taxes that tax pro athletes based on the number of days they spend in a city. This would be just another of these taxes but you're right, Joe Fan doesn't mind sticking the rich athletes with another tax. Tax returns for A-Rod and other pro players can run hundreds of pages because of all the schedules, etc. that have to be filed relating to these taxes all over the place. I've heard that part of the reason Clemens negotiated the deal where he wasn't required to all away games was to avoid some of these taxes.

I don't know that umpires should be making $106,000 when minor league gms and other staff are working for peanuts also.

Sorry. I was talking merely about a fund for minor league umpires. Hotels, travel, food, insurance, uniforms, training (how about scholarships to deserving umpire candidates at the umpire schools?) No one expects lower-level umpires to make half what a major umpire makes.

As to taxing ballplayers, cities would put that money into the general fund. My tax money would remain completely with baseball.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Justme

They are apprentices. They are in the minors learning their trade. To my understanding working in the minor leagues is not meant to be the end of a career path, it’s the beginning. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to reach your goals.

IMHO your plan hints of Socialism.

Since you continue to say the AMLU umpires are mere apprentices let's discuss apprentice wages shall we. For example, the average scale of a first year apprentice in the building trades is 45% of journeyman wages. Each year as their hours increase in the trade their percentage goes up until it finally tops out at 90% of journeymen scale sometime during their last year of indenturement. All the while they share the same benefits as the journeymen. Same health care plan, same annuity contribution percentage, and same pension percentage.

So if we were to translate that into the percentage of the wages of the lowest level pay scale in MLB, it would come out to $40,500 in just salary alone for a first year umpire. A veteran of AAA waiting for his shot at the next level, should then be making $81,000. in just salary. I'm not saying that these numbers aren't way high for a MiLB umpire, because they are. But, if you insist on referring to them as apprentices you should do more research into what comparable apprentice wages are.


Tim.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Justme

So you want to take the money from MLB players and give it to the minor league umpires? You consider it the job of the MLB players to pay for the training of the umpires? Since you earn money from the sport of baseball maybe you should also pay a 1% tax on your earnings, isn’t that what your logic dictates?

While I support every person’s right to make as much money as they can it still boils down to a few basic things:
1. How important is their job to the industry? This is determined by the industry.
2. What is the supply and demand? Are there 1000’s of people trying for a couple of hundred jobs?

This is not a necessary correct. Paying someone more money doesn't make them better employees. If you double the minimum wage would you get your fries faster at the local fastfood joint?

I guess its shame, shame on me. I don't agree with you that the MLB players owe the umpires a living. I built a business without anyone giving me 1% of their salaries and there were years when I brought home less than these umpires do.

They are apprentices. They are in the minors learning their trade. To my understanding working in the minor leagues is not meant to be the end of a career path, it’s the beginning. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices to reach your goals.

IMHO your plan hints of Socialism.

Double the minimum wage and you'll cut in half the problems you have in the Drive-thru.

You built your business, not by retaining 1% of your employees' wages, but by keeping as much as you could while still being able to hire workers. Your "tax" was, as you know, far more than one percent.

My plan hints of socialism? Let me tell you socialism: medicare, defense, social security, homeland security, roads, levees (except in New Orleans). My plan does not scatter the money over the general populace.

And besides, if socialism is so bad, why is it built into the fabric of society everywhere? Remember Star Trek II: The good of the many outweighs the good of the few or the one.

[Carl Childress]

Originally Posted by Justme

They are apprentices. They are in the minors learning their trade. To my understanding working in the minor leagues is not meant to be the end of a career path, it’s the beginning.

Once upon a time there were career minor league umpires. You could look it up.

That all changed with the first contract with the major league umpires. Now, MiLB has a three-year clause: If you don't move up after three years, bye-bye.

Reason: They can continue to pay a pittance for their AAA umpires. If the majors have evinced an interest in an umpire, he can remain longer; but he can NEVER make a career of professional baseball unless he's in the majors.

Think about it.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Since you continue to say the AMLU umpires are mere apprentices let's discuss apprentice wages shall we. For example, the average scale of a first year apprentice in the building trades is 45% of journeyman wages. Each year as their hours increase in the trade their percentage goes up until it finally tops out at 90% of journeymen scale sometime during their last year of indenturement. All the while they share the same benefits as the journeymen. Same health care plan, same annuity contribution percentage, and same pension percentage.

So if we were to translate that into the percentage of the wages of the lowest level pay scale in MLB, it would come out to $40,500 in just salary alone for a first year umpire. A veteran of AAA waiting for his shot at the next level, should then be making $81,000. in just salary. I'm not saying that these numbers aren't way high for a MiLB umpire, because they are. But, if you insist on referring to them as apprentices you should do more research into what comparable apprentice wages are.


Tim.

Once again.....two points:

(1) I'm in favor of a person earning as much as the market allows but
(2) The market is controlled by supply and demand.

It's really that simple....the price of gas going up is an example, except with gas it's a global market that impacts supply/demand.

Your comparison to building trades is not exactly the same as for MLB. The building trade apprentices are actually working along with "pro's" on actual projects. Minor league umpires are not working MLB with the pro umpires. They are more like a college student who is "intering" for a company to gain experience while still in school. So I'll change the term I use from 'apprentice' to 'intern'....... They are interns.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Once upon a time there were career minor league umpires. You could look it up.

That all changed with the first contract with the major league umpires. Now, MiLB has a three-year clause: If you don't move up after three years, bye-bye.

Reason: They can continue to pay a pittance for their AAA umpires. If the majors have evinced an interest in an umpire, he can remain longer; but he can NEVER make a career of professional baseball unless he's in the majors.

Think about it.

...seems like that if this system is so horrid, pro-school graduates should have declined all invitations to the PBUC in droves. That would send a clear message that they weren't going to buy into the years (3, anyway)-of-poverty-for-a-01%-chance-at-the-brass-ring philosophy.

Yet the pro schools are booming business, and AFAIK PBUC has had no trouble attracting grads to the Rookie League (or whatever). This is the metric that MiLB/MLB sees: despite the rhetoric, there are plenty of replacements/scabs/whatever clamoring to fill these jobs at an acceptable (to THEIR customer, Joe Fan) level of performance. Just like there's always another AMLU member to step in when ole reliable Joe Basepath was summarily fired after 3 years because no one died at the next level and he wasn't promoted. Ambitious umpires eat their young...its what got them into the system in the first place.

No one is yet angry ENOUGH to demolish the system and start over, because a lot of umpires with years invested in the current system would be washed out, despite their miniscule chances of making the 'show'

RE: revenue, I understand your POV, Carl, but your solution has about as much chance as Steinbrenner sending all his cable-TV revenue to 'small market' teams because 'its fair.' It will never happen.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Once upon a time there were career minor league umpires. You could look it up.

That all changed with the first contract with the major league umpires. Now, MiLB has a three-year clause: If you don't move up after three years, bye-bye.

Reason: They can continue to pay a pittance for their AAA umpires. If the majors have evinced an interest in an umpire, he can remain longer; but he can NEVER make a career of professional baseball unless he's in the majors.

Think about it.

I'm sure that everything you say is correct. But they knew what they were getting into right from the start....if they didn't then they are too stupid to have the job.

I'm not against the strike.....I wish them luck, after all I'm a capitalist. It's just that I do not feel sorry for them.

An example in my life is my #3 son. He spent years chasing his NHL dream. Years of making very little money, riding on buses, staying in cheap hotels and eating fastfood. He held off getting married or even being in a serious relationship while he was out there trying to make it. He survived by working odd jobs when he wasn't playing. He understood that there wouldn't be very much money unless he worked his way into the NHL, he never complained. When the NHL went on strike he gave up and at 23 went back to college.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

My area too. Saw a manager last Sunday arguing safe/out at 2B on a steal. AA game. I've seen a half dozen games this season, and this is the first time they came out to argue a bad call (and it wasn't by any accounting the first bad call).

You must have fairly good eyes to be able to tell that a call on a tag play at 2B was a "bad call" from the stands.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

I was tempted to ignore your post as an homage to your behavior towards me over the last few months. However, I take great pains to set the record straight on this board. A few members have replied in similar language to what I would have used. However, you can't ignore the fact that MiLB has maintained that the PBUC system is a training grounds and not a promise of a comfortable lifestyle. Like artists, musicians and the armed services, you are paid a pittance while you pay your dues. No promise of glory or assurances of luxury are made. I have firsthand knowledge of the program, albeit a long time ago. Our conditions were much worse and we knew that when we signed on. Even Iassogna admits that he had to work three jobs a year to insure that he would make it. That is the price you pay for a shot at glory.

Your idea of paying a living wage for the umpires is noble but misguided. Do you really think it makes sense to pay the umpires when many of the players in those leagues are in the same boat? Many teams have sponsor families to provide housing for the players because they aren't paid enough to make it. Yet, the umpires should get at the head of that line? Come on Carl, even you don't believe that. You are opening Pandora's box and it will be very messy.

Why should MLB subsidize the umpires in the Minor Leagues? Ninety-nine percent of the cadidates wash out and the few that make it are like Supreme Court Justices - they enjoy a lifetime of perks unless they mess up! Froemming is finally retiring after thirty six years in the game. Brinkmann and a few others have been at it so long that they are now seeing the children of the players at work. MLB doesn't need to restock the ranks that often. This year will be an exception and the AAA guys are scared that they will lose out.

MLB dipped into the amateur ranks when their staff walked out and the game went on. That was many years ago and we both know that amateur umpiring has been transformed. Our training, knowledge and dediaction are light years from twenty years ago. We are seeing that amateurs can make a transition and a very few can get the job done at the highest level. (We saw some fine example of the AAA best at the WBC and they looked worse than the NCAA Championship crew.)

I have not taken issue with the idea that they deserve more. The union brass is at fault for allowing this issue to deteriorate. The very idea that they permitted a 'Scab' photo album tells me all I needed to know about my professional brethren. The facts are coming out and the union asked for much more than they are admitting in their spin campaign. PBUC saw no merit to such ridiculous demands and we are where we are because of it.

I don't begrudge the indivdual MiLB umpire for wanting a better living, but he KNEW WHAT HE WAS GETTING INTO WHEN HE SIGNED THE CONTRACT. We all did and no matter what Hubler says, no one guaranteed success. By the way, he's been at it for ten years, so some of them do try to hang on longer than logic would dictate.

The fact remains, the schools are full with hopefuls who are willing to be trained. The amateurs who are serving as replacements are doing a solid job. Yes, we are enlightened spectators and can find fault with mechanics and second guess calls from the stands. When you are out there, do you put much stock in a coach questioning your judgement from one hundred and fifty feet away? The same mistakes are being made and tempers will flare. The teams that are playing need to win and the players need to shine. I can't recall the last time an umpire was blamed for ending the career of a player. Like the coach who blames the umpire when he is ejected after his team squanders a lead...shut up already!

I understand your point Carl, there has to be a better way. In a perfect world, they would all make salaries comensurate with their talent. But like any business, you get what the boss thinks you are worth. If they win a substantial increase, I won't boo and hiss. I WILL recall how they tried to smear the reputations of some brave souls who stepped up and did a very thankless job. Amateur umpires will support their professional brothers when they behave like professionals. The damage is done for now...I've written it before - the shame is that they are throwing away the dream because they expected more. They are given a lottery ticket when they sign on. There are many amateurs that would like to be in their shoes and have a shot at that glory. They too are willing to work for peanuts for that chance. PBUC knows this only too well. I imagine that the schools are going to be full next year too.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Carl Childress

Double the minimum wage and you'll cut in half the problems you have in the Drive-thru.

You built your business, not by retaining 1% of your employees' wages, but by keeping as much as you could while still being able to hire workers. Your "tax" was, as you know, far more than one percent.

My plan hints of socialism? Let me tell you socialism: medicare, defense, social security, homeland security, roads, levees (except in New Orleans). My plan does not scatter the money over the general populace.

And besides, if socialism is so bad, why is it built into the fabric of society everywhere? Remember Star Trek II: The good of the many outweighs the good of the few or the one.

In the next movie when they returned to search for Spock didn't Capt. Kirk tell Spock that sometimes the good of the one outweighs the good of the many?

Actually I built my business by working many long and hard days and making whatever sacrifices were required. Not by asking people to give me 1% of their earnings. It might have helped but I didn't think about it at the time

The only 'true' examples of socialism, since to the best of my knowledge Star Trek II was a sci-fi movie, are places like the the former USSR and even to some extent Canada. Try getting some elective surgery done in Canada. I have a brother-in-law in the medical profession in Canada and he can tell you horror stories about their system. IMHO giving people things for nothing breeds the continued need for additional handouts (i.e., our welfare system) and increased taxation. I could talk for hours on this subject but this is not the forum.

Unlike MiLB I have always paid my people well. I knew from the very start that even if you produce a great product you are nothing without great people. I hope that the umpires get more money, but not by taxing the players.