Amateur vs. Pro

[jacob_23]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
...Bob Engel, or Fred Brocklander, a couple of scabs...

Bob Engel was a scab?? Explain please.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, since I put my foot in my mouth to start with, I'll go first.

Most umpires (these days) who go to umpire school, go through the gruelling years in the minors, and then get the call to the majors, are outstanding officials. But I feel that many do not possess the same kind of "crappy baseball" experience that the seasoned amateur umpire does.
The lowest levels, i.e. Rookie, or Short A, etc., are still a notch above High School or College ball. So, while we are seeing every possible situation known to man, they sometimes aren't experiencing the same things. Does this make sense? These guys might not have ever seen some of the idiotic plays that we see on a daily basis at the lower levels.

So, that being said, to answer the question, yes, I think that it is possible that SOME College, and even SOME High School Varsity playoff quality umpires are as good, or better than SOME Major League umpires.

Okay, I am a HS umpire and I don't feel that we can hold a candle to our brothers in MLB. Maybe, we could get some work in Rookie or AA ball but nothing above. There is a world of difference between doing HS vs. MLB. Most HS is done under FED rules (except in 2 states). The players are far from Minor league caliber let alone MLB.

Good HS umpires can aspire to become D3 or D2 eventually becoming D1. Good HS umpires can go to one of the 2 MLB schools and maybe, possibly, on the outside chance get a Minor League job. Sometimes you get lucky. Ed Rapuanno is still a member of our HS board (honorary) and made it all the way to the Big's, so it can be done. But to say that HS Playoff umpires are as good as MLB is just a ridiculous statement!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
So, that being said, to answer the question, yes, I think that it is possible that SOME College, and even SOME High School Varsity playoff quality umpires are as good, or better than SOME Major League umpires.

I'm guessing that there are about 75 ML umpires and about 100,000 HS umpires. So, it's possible that the "best" (if it could be determined) HS umpire is better than the "worst" (ditto) ML umpire.

But, I don't know of many good HS umpires who don't also work college, and you seemed to separate the groups. So, let's say that there are 5,000 HS playoff quality umpires who don't work college ball (that number seems high to me). The odds get a little longer.

Add in the increased speed of the game, the pressure, the game management issues and the fact that you're looking for more than one such umpire (you used the word "some"), and I'd say that it's extremely unlikely. I'd rather take my chances on a power ball ticket.

Now, if the question was "are there HS umpires who, if they had chosen to pursue a ML career would be better than some of the current umpires?" you'd get a different response.

[eureka25]

Here is the plan facts - Getting a call right 10 of 10 times, that is a great kudos to have and I am so glad you can have the confidence to say something like this.

However, the big big picture of what I assume to be a MLB (or other leagues') umpire goes well beyond just making calls. Just like in almost every aspect of life - knowledge, experience, and communication plays a huge role on how situations reveal themselves.

Knowledge:
Knowlege of the rules is obviously the one point that everyone feels that an umpire must know. But, there is more to that. Interpretation of the rules probably transcends the knowledge in importance. Being able to apply the right rule to the right situation - now that takes skill, training, and experience that far surpasses most "part-time" umpires. Thank goodness for the MLB umpires and trainers.

Experience:
Experience pretty much says what it says. Understanding where you have been and knowing how to move forward from there. Applying experience is not just because you have umprired for 30 years, but rather applying the lessons you learned over those 30 years. This does not just happen on the field either. This is passing the knowledge via your partners, organizations,..

Communication:
The skill to communicate can make or break a solid leader in any aspect of life. I believe if there is one attribute an umpire MUST have, communication is a must. To be able to "verbal and non-verbal" calls, relationships, situations,... goes a long way to making a great umpire - and leader.

Now SanDiegoSteve, unitl you have walked the walk I would just keep on moving along if I were you. I do not post many messages, but I do frequent this message board a ton to gain some knowledge and experience. I do not profess to be in the same "photograph" as many on this board as far as umpiring skills go - nor should you. This board is about adding value for others to discuss and learn. Unitl you add that value - I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!!

Just my 2 cents,
Jeff

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
[/B]

Like I have previously stated, the only reason I'm not a big league umpire is that I started way too late to get a pro job. I regret that fact.

And Garth, the same goes for you. I am sure your the ace of your association or some such bull. I had plenty of huevos, I had the stupidity to believe what I was told at the time. There may have been a 30 year old honor grad.

[/B][/QUOTE]Far be it for me to get involved in an argument, but......

I heard of one MLB umpire who went to four camps in a row before he got offered a job-- 2 months before he turned 30. Worked his way up through the minors to AAA and actually got into 95 games in the Bigs as a fill-in. Then he got shunted back to AAA permanently in '93 for a year, and ended up getting fired. He lived with his Mommie for 3 years and then went and begged to get an umpiring job back- at the age of forty (40) plus. He started all over again at A ball and worked his way back up to AAA again. Finally got his chance in '99 when Richie Philipps made the biggest mistake of his career and MLB ended up replacing 22 veterano blues and opened up their jobs for rookies.

With a little perseverance, you coulda been "that guy"!

Phil Cuzzi, come on down!

http://www.referee.com/sampleArticle...mplisting.html

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 17th, 2005 at 11:51 AM]

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally posted by jacob_23

Bob Engel was a scab?? Explain please.

My mistake, Engel was not a scab. I didn't care for his appearance as I remember, nor his plate mechanics, but he was a fine official.

Let's try Blake Cullen, or Steve Fields, or John Shulock then. Pallone even.

LOOK GUYS, I'm not trying to say that I could go right out there, with no pro ball experience, and take their place on a permanent basis. I am saying that in a pinch, I could fill in in case of an emergency, and the quality of the game would not suffer noticeably.

As for the HS/OBR differences, I work so many different levels besides HS, and none of those use Fed rules. I work top level games in the 17-18U and Adult Ball. These adult leagues have been 9 inning, wood bat, and include former major league players. I have umpired Mark Prior, Barry Zito, Troy Glaus, and over 20 other current players, plus many former players, so I have the basic skills.

Yes, I should have worded it differently so here goes, and let's just drop it after that, OK?

If I would have gone to umpire school, gotten a pro job, made it through the BS years, I might have had a chance of being a Major League umpire.

Damn, I guess that describes just about anyone. I guess my opinion of myself is overinflated. Well, at least I have confidence, huh?

P.S. At the time in 1986 when I contemplated Harry's, I had just enough saved for the school tuition, and even had sent the money in. After I let people talk me out of going (big mistake), I got my money back because my family really needed it at the time, and the prospect of getting the pro job seemed unlikely, so economics won out over the dream. Now I sound just like the "coulda been a contender" people. Great.


[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Oct 17th, 2005 at 11:50 AM]

[mattmets]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ozzy6900

Good HS umpires can aspire to become D3 or D2 eventually becoming D1. Good HS umpires can go to one of the 2 MLB schools and maybe, possibly, on the outside chance get a Minor League job. Sometimes you get lucky. Ed Rapuano is still a member of our HS board (honorary) and made it all the way to the Big's, so it can be done. But to say that HS Playoff umpires are as good as MLB is just a ridiculous statement!

Ozz,

I'm from CT too so I've heard that Ed is from the area. Do you know if he started out by working HS games in the CIAC? I've heard from guys I played with that his father still works- do you know if this is true? I just graduated HS so this info is fairly recent. I'm just asking because I love the way Ed works and think he is one of the best in the bigs today.

Thanks-
Matt

[ozzy6900]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mattmets

Originally posted by ozzy6900

Ozz,

I'm from CT too so I've heard that Ed is from the area. Do you know if he started out by working HS games in the CIAC? I've heard from guys I played with that his father still works- do you know if this is true? I just graduated HS so this info is fairly recent. I'm just asking because I love the way Ed works and think he is one of the best in the bigs today.

Thanks-
Matt

Yes, Ed Rap started working HS ball with the New Haven Board, went to MLB school (I don't remember which one) sand got a minor league job. He got placed in the Bigs to backfill a vacationing MLB umpire and they liked his style. He was called up and the rest is history. His father is still a member and active umpire (not a bad one either, if I may be so bold).

[JRutledge]

I think there are very select amateur umpires that could step in and work games at that level and perform just as good if not better than a few select MLB Umpires. That does not mean most or all could make that transition. The major difference between a pro umpire and an amateur umpire is the route they choose to take. I saw some calls in the playoffs just yesterday that looked like "rookie" mistakes on calls that I know certain umpires would not make. Let us face it, working the bases are not the most difficult thing for an umpire to do. Most of the time we sit around and have to make one call, especially if we are working more than 2 Man mechanics. All the 3 Man games I worked this past season I was lucky to get one really close call, let alone a tough call. I think the hardest transition would be for someone to work the plate. I just think it is not out of the realm of possibility that amateurs would do a good job if they are given a chance. I feel the same way that if you gave amateurs in my other sports, some would be able to handle working the. The difference is the individuals at the pros were given a chance or pursue that level. Not everyone can pursue the pros.

Peace

[GarthB]

The difference is the individuals at the pros were given a chance or (to) pursue that level. Not everyone can pursue the pros.


With all respect, Jeff I disagree. The individuals at the pros were given nothing. Their desire was equalled by their dedication and effort and they found a way to go to proschool. Some borrowed the money, some mortgaged their houses, some lost their wives and families over their decisions.

They were not given a chance. They chose to pursue that level. They chose to do without while making near minimum wage for years in rookie ball, short season A, Long season A and even double A. They worked their a$$es off, first to not get released, and second, to move up.

Given simething? No. They earned everything they got. Baseball umpiring is one profession where you work to earn your place every day. How often do accountants perform in front of 30,000 plus people who critique their every move. How often do insurance agents have their supervisor go on television to call an opinion "at best inconclusive"?

Lastly, Jeff everyone MAY pursue the pros, at least at the beginning level. One doesn't even have had to call a single game to go to proschool. Not everyone, however, chooses to pursue the pros. Some have different callings and some just don't have what it takes.

But if one choses not to pursue the pros, for whatever reason, if they do not choose the hard work, the long road, the uncertain future, the crappy pay and proving their worth in public, they forfeit any right to the "I coulda been there" claim. If you "coulda", you "woulda".




[Edited by GarthB on Oct 17th, 2005 at 02:31 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
With all respect, Jeff I disagree. The individuals at the pros were given nothing. Their desire was equalled by their dedication and effort and they found a way to go to proschool. Some borrowed the money, some mortgaged their houses, some lost their wives and families over their decisions.

They were not given a chance. They chose to pursue that level. They chose to do without while making near minimum wage for years in rookie ball, short season A, Long season A and even double A. They worked their a$$es off, first to not get released, and second, to move up.

The question was not whether anyone gave these umpires anything. The question is whether some amateurs could do as good of a job as a pro. I agree no one just "gave them something." But they choose to go to pro school and put themselves in the position to get work their way through the ranks. I know I never considered going to pro school mainly because I have a job and had other obligations and goals that umpiring minor league baseball for a chance in 10 or more I might get a sniff at the "Show." I also officiate other sports and I would rather try to achieve in those other sports. I also know several umpires that are in a similar situation as I am.

Originally posted by GarthB
Given simething? No. They earned everything they got. Baseball umpiring is one profession where you work to earn your place every day. How often do accountants perform in front of 30,000 plus people who critique their every move. How often do insurance agents have their supervisor go on television to call an opinion "at best inconclusive"?

First of all I do feel that people "earn" their way, but I also feel that people have to believe in you or think you are better than others you are competeing against. I know in basketball and football, you have to have people pulling for you and giving you an opportunity. Of course the people that got to the Majors had to earn their way, but they also had to have people to "give" them an opportunity to show they are capable to work. Before the current system, umpires were picked largely based on the recommendations of retiring and outgoing umpires at the Major League level. So if the right person like you, you got moved up. Of course they had to perform when given the chance, but to act as if someone was not pulling for them is not the reality. It is not the reality in other aspects of life, it is not the reality in officiating either. The more people pulling for you, the better. If you have no one in decision making positions pulling for you or no one that can speak on your behalf with influence, it is going to be harder.

Originally posted by GarthB
Lastly, Jeff everyone MAY pursue the pros, at least at the beginning level. One doesn't even have had to call a single game to go to proschool. Not everyone, however, chooses to pursue the pros. Some have different callings and some just don't have what it takes.

But if one choses not to pursue the pros, for whatever reason, if they do not choose the hard work, the long road, the uncertain future, the crappy pay and proving their worth in public, they forfeit any right to the "I coulda been there" claim. If you "coulda", you "woulda".

Once again the issue is not whether the achieved that level, the issue is whether they could do as good of a job. I know when I watch college and pro basketball there are officials that I know could do just as good of a job as the people you see on TV. The difference is they were not given the chance (yet) or they did not pursue working that level. There are a lot of reasons why people decide not work the higher levels, but that does not mean if given a chance (which is usually unrealistic BTW) they could work just as good of a game as those. The one thing about baseball is there is a much bigger risk-reward element to getting to the Majors. You have to work really hard for years and hope you survive long enough for a dream that only a select few will ever get an opportunity. I will never believe that only 50 (or whatever the size of the MLB umpire staff is) people in the world are the only ones capable of working that level. I am sure there are hundreds of umpires all over the country that could do just as good of a job.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The question was not whether anyone gave these umpires anything. The question is whether some amateurs could do as good of a job as a pro. I agree no one just "gave them something." But they choose to go to pro school and put themselves in the position to get work their way through the ranks. I know I never considered going to pro school mainly because I have a job and had other obligations and goals that umpiring minor league baseball for a chance in 10 or more I might get a sniff at the "Show." I also officiate other sports and I would rather try to achieve in those other sports. I also know several umpires that are in a similar situation as I am.

First of all I do feel that people "earn" their way, but I also feel that people have to believe in you or think you are better than others you are competeing against. I know in basketball and football, you have to have people pulling for you and giving you an opportunity. Of course the people that got to the Majors had to earn their way, but they also had to have people to "give" them an opportunity to show they are capable to work. Before the current system, umpires were picked largely based on the recommendations of retiring and outgoing umpires at the Major League level. So if the right person like you, you got moved up. Of course they had to perform when given the chance, but to act as if someone was not pulling for them is not the reality. It is not the reality in other aspects of life, it is not the reality in officiating either. The more people pulling for you, the better. If you have no one in decision making positions pulling for you or no one that can speak on your behalf with influence, it is going to be harder.

Once again the issue is not whether the achieved that level, the issue is whether they could do as good of a job. I know when I watch college and pro basketball there are officials that I know could do just as good of a job as the people you see on TV. The difference is they were not given the chance (yet) or they did not pursue working that level. There are a lot of reasons why people decide not work the higher levels, but that does not mean if given a chance (which is usually unrealistic BTW) they could work just as good of a game as those. The one thing about baseball is there is a much bigger risk-reward element to getting to the Majors. You have to work really hard for years and hope you survive long enough for a dream that only a select few will ever get an opportunity. I will never believe that only 50 (or whatever the size of the MLB umpire staff is) people in the world are the only ones capable of working that level. I am sure there are hundreds of umpires all over the country that could do just as good of a job.

Peace

I'm sorry Jeff. Your first post wasn't nearly as clear. I responded only to what you said:

"The difference is the individuals at the pros were given a chance or (to) pursue that level. Not everyone can pursue the pros." Those two statments are not simply true.

I had no way of knowing you meant something different as you pointed out in your next post.

[JRutledge]

Well Garth, this is why it is an opinion. You do not have to agree with my point of view or anyone's point of view on the topic. I said that it was a case by case basis and I feel that there are amateur umpires that would do a better job than some pro umpires. Many D1 umpires never attempted to go to pro school or wanted to work in the Major Leagues. We can debate of why, but I am sure there are some D1 umpires that make more money than many Major League umpires currently and it would not be cost affective for them to end up like Eric Gregg when the Majors decides to get rid of you.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Well Garth, this is why it is an opinion. You do not have to agree with my point of view or anyone's point of view on the topic. I said that it was a case by case basis and I feel that there are amateur umpires that would do a better job than some pro umpires. Many D1 umpires never attempted to go to pro school or wanted to work in the Major Leagues. We can debate of why, but I am sure there are some D1 umpires that make more money than many Major League umpires currently and it would not be cost affective for them to end up like Eric Gregg when the Majors decides to get rid of you.

Peace

Jeff:

You are confusing me. As I said I was responding directly to what you said. I even reprinted what you said for reference. What you are saying now is different regardless of your philosophy of "opinion".

I don't wish to start a pissing contest with you. I'm dropping the whole matter and writing it off as a communication malfunction. Best of luck this basektball season.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB

Jeff:

You are confusing me. As I said I was responding directly to what you said. I even reprinted what you said for reference. What you are saying now is different regardless of your philosophy of "opinion".

I don't wish to start a pissing contest with you. I'm dropping the whole matter and writing it off as a communication malfunction. Best of luck this basektball season.

Why do you have to think this was a pissing contest? We are just sharing opinions amongst friendÂ’s right? Why does a simple disagreement have to be a hateful, contentions situation?

Garth, if you feel the statements are not true, I disagree. You can pay all the money to go to Umpire school, you still have to be picked to work pro ball. Many non-pro umpires never go to pro school or ever try to work any kind of pro ball. I know I have never attended pro school and I never will. It was not my goal. Now I am not saying I could do as good of a job as a Major League Umpire, I do not have that kind of dedication to the game. I only work about 50 games a season and when the summer hits I am basically finished with baseball until the next spring. But I know umpires that work hundreds of games and in my opinion would do a very good job if they ever decided to pursue that level or some strange reason they were picked to work the Major Leagues (which is not how the current system works).

Peace