Fielder loses possession; Ball out of play

[Lapopez]

Last week I was having dinner with some umpires from my association. I had a disagreement about the following play. We were talking baseball but last night he brought a publication from 1983 titled "Illustrated Softball Rules" endorsed by the Amateur Softball Association to support his side.

Here is the play from the book: A runner is sliding into third. The third baseman loses possession of the ball and the ball goes out of play. A quote directed toward players: "When a fielder loses possession of the ball, such as on an attempted tag, and it goes out of play, each runner is awarded one base beyond the last base touched at the time the ball entered the out-of-play area. The runner sliding into third would have reached this base before the ball went out of play, and would therefore be awarded home plate." Another quote directed toward umpires: "It is not considered a throw when the fielder loses possession of the ball. Awards are judged by the positions of the runners at the time the ball leaves the playing field. Signal and call "Time" and award one base to each runner."

I would like to know if what he is quoting from that softball book applies to baseball. I argued that it should be a two base award.

[mbyron]

What's weird about that award is that it's judged from the time the ball leaves the field. In baseball, awards for an overthrow are 2 base and judged as either TOT or TOP. The latter if the play is the first by an infielder, otherwise the former.

[Tim C]

"We were talking baseball but last night he brought a publication from 1983 titled "Illustrated Softball Rules" . . ."

So,

Why would anyone think that a softball rules book would pretain to a baseball ruling?

[Rich Ives]

"Why would anyone think that a softball rules book would pertain to a baseball ruling?"


Because they think it's the same game.

When we added the softbal program under our umbrella, I told our UIC he needed to get his crew softball training because it's a different game. He disagreed. He found out the hard way.

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by Tim C
"We were talking baseball but last night he brought a publication from 1983 titled "Illustrated Softball Rules" . . ."

So,

Why would anyone think that a softball rules book would pretain to a baseball ruling?

A little background: I'm in my mid 30's and everybody else at these dinners are at least 50. This particular gentleman is in his upper 70's and he is a joy to be around due to his continued enthusiasm for the game. I usually feel very comfortable and confident in my rules knowledge. I am constantly in disagreement with my elder, more experienced colleagues but I am always afraid to disagree with them. I rarely contribute to this kind of forum (discussion boards) because I am afraid of the flame wars here. I usually just ask questions. I frankly could use some advice on how to approach the issue of how to disagree in a way that doesn't offend sensitive, veteran umpires who are very set in their ways. Last night, after I read the passage, I said in a very humble tone that I didn't think it applied to baseball. The gentleman turned to another umpire who does more baseball, and he agreed with the one base award. I said I would post the question on this forum (these guys are not internet savvy). Even the tone (if a "tone" can be inferred from writing) of your question Tim, could be construed as on the offensive. Why didn't you just answer the question? I really try to avoid this when I disagree with these older fellas. I wouldn't know how to verbally ask your question in a way that doesn't put the other guy on the defensive. I am starting to ramble so I'll stop here.

[Rich Ives]

Try this approach (example fitted to the original question).

"I read rule 7.05(g) I think I remember it saying the award is two bases from the runner's position at the time of the throw. Do I remember it incorrectly?"

You thus demonstrate a base of knowledge without telling them they're wrong.

If they disagree, get out the book and say "Gee, I guess I'd better re-read it."

Read it (to yourself).

Then, put on a puzzled look, hand one of them the book, and ask him to help you understand how you are not getting it.

[officialtony]

What Rich said.
Sounds perfect.

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Try this approach (example fitted to the original question).

"I read rule 7.05(g) I think I remember it saying the award is two bases from the runner's position at the time of the throw. Do I remember it incorrectly?"

You thus demonstrate a base of knowledge without telling them they're wrong.

If they disagree, get out the book and say "Gee, I guess I'd better re-read it."

Read it (to yourself).

Then, put on a puzzled look, hand one of them the book, and ask him to help you understand how you are not getting it.

I didn't quote the rule by the specific reference but I paraphrased it accurately. His biggest contention was that once the fielder has possession of the ball, it no longer was a thrown ball but rather a "fielding play." He accused me of nit-picking when I asked if the fielder merely had to touch the thrown ball with his glove in order to get the one base award.

[Tim C]

Aren't we just in a "can't we just get along" world!

Sheesh, even when I was younger I told people when they were flat out wrong.

I answered your question.

Softball has nothing to do with baseball. You know the rule, it is your local Smitty's that don't.

Just give'em a group hug and hum Kumbaya!

Love & Kisses,

Tee

[Kaliix]

I would think that 7.05 (f) would be more applicable in this situation. The rule deals strictly with a fair ball that bounces or is deflected. Notice that the rule doesn't say the ball has to be batted, just fair. In your case, it would be a deflected ball. It is still a two base award.

I wish I had my J/R manual here to verify the rule, but I believe it to be correct.

7.05 (f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by Kaliix
I would think that 7.05 (f) would be more applicable in this situation. The rule deals strictly with a fair ball that bounces or is deflected. Notice that the rule doesn't say the ball has to be batted, just fair. In your case, it would be a deflected ball. It is still a two base award.

[/i]

I would have thought that "fair" implied a batted ball.

[Rich Ives]

Originally posted by Kaliix
I would think that 7.05 (f) would be more applicable in this situation. The rule deals strictly with a fair ball that bounces or is deflected. Notice that the rule doesn't say the ball has to be batted, just fair. In your case, it would be a deflected ball. It is still a two base award.

I wish I had my J/R manual here to verify the rule, but I believe it to be correct.

7.05 (f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;

That's about a BATTED ball.

[Rich Ives]

Gee Tee, I got brought up to respect one's elders and that wasn't in the touchy-feely generation (look at my photo - the gray is not pre-mature).

[Edited by Rich Ives on Aug 11th, 2005 at 11:19 AM]

[DownTownTonyBrown]

NFHS Softball has a specific ruling for a ball that has been caught and is then fumbled or deflected into dead-ball territory (Other adult softball codes probably have similar rules)...

NFHS 8-4-3g
A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:
g. the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked...
EXCEPTIONS
1) When a fielder loses possession of the ball, such as on an attempted tag, and the ball enters the dead-ball area or becomes blocked, each runner is awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the ball entered the dead-ball area or became blocked.

Neither NFHS baseball or MLB has such a specific ruling that I can find for a caught ball that is fumbled into dead-ball territory.

The closest I can find for this scenario, is in Rule 7.

7.05 g and h
(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead.

(h) One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position on the pitcher's plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead; APPROVED RULING: When a wild pitch or passed ball goes through or by the catcher, or deflects off the catcher, and goes directly into the dugout, stands, above the break, or any area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be one base. One base shall also be awarded if the pitcher while in contact with the rubber, throws to a base, and the throw goes directly into the stands or into any area where the ball is dead. If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

So the proper answer is one base in softball and two in baseball. (We expect more of baseball players)

In your discussion you may want to refer to the deadball tables (Rule 5) in the NFHS rulebooks. Softball #15 (8-4-3g) and Baseball #15 (8-3-3c and 8-3-4). Also notice that there are 37 dead-ball situations in NFHS softball and only 26 in NFHS baseball. There are obviously some rules differences between the games... As noted by others here, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME GAMES.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Aug 11th, 2005 at 12:45 PM]

[Tim C]

Rich wrote:

"I got brought up to respect one's elders . . . "

And Rich, therein lies a fundemental difference between us.

I was taught to respect those who EARN IT!