Minimum Play rule

[mcrowder]

I was going to try and outdo Rich, but I don't have the energy. Please pretend that I quoted 6 separate rules in their entirety and that none of the rules is remotely relevant to this conversation.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives

Minimum play protests depend on the substitutions record.

Who's job is it to track substitutions? (Hints below)

The lineup card is essential to a minimum play requirement protest, whether you think it should be or not.

In LL the umpire IS involved. Your personal dislike for the concept can't change that.

LL rules state:

LL REGULAR SEASON

4.19(f)
NOTE 2: All Little League officials are urged to take precautions to prevent protests. When a protest situation is imminent, the potential offenders should be notified immediately. Example: Should a manager, official scorer, league official or umpire discover that a pitcher is ineligible at the beginning of the game, or will become ineligible during the game or at the start of the next inning of play, the fact should be brought to the attention of the manager of the team involved. Such action should not be delayed until the infraction has occurred. However, failure of personnel to notify the manager of the infraction does not affect the validity of the protest.

LL TOURNAMENT RULES

Protests C(3)
NOTE 2: All officials, including all managers, coaches, scorekeepers, umpires, Tournament Directors, District Administrators, etc., should make every effort to prevent a situation that may result in the forfeiture of a game or suspension of tournament privileges. However, failure by any party to prevent such situations shall not affect the validity of a protest.

General Hints on responsibilities:

OBR: 3.06 The manager shall immediately notify the umpire in chief of any substitution and shall state to the umpire in chief the substitute's place in the batting order.

LL: 3.06 The manager shall immediately notify the umpire-in-chief of any substitution and shall state to the umpire-in-chief the substitute's place in the batting order.

OBR: 4.01
a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate.
b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire in chief, in duplicate.
c) The umpire in chief shall make certain that the original and copies of the respective batting orders are identical, and then tender a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order. The tender of the batting order by the umpire shall establish the batting orders. Thereafter, no substitutions shall be made by either manager, except as provided in the rules.

LL 4.01
(a) the home team manager shall give the batting order in duplicate to the umpire-in-chief;
(b) next, the visiting manager shall give the batting order in duplicate to the umpire-in-chief;
(c) the umpire-in-chief shall make certain that the original and duplicate copies are the same, then provide a copy of each batting order to the opposing manager. The original copy retained by the umpire shall be the official batting order;

OBR 9.04
a)The umpire in chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to:
8) Inform the official scorer of the official batting order, and any changes in the lineups and batting order, on request;

LL 9.04
The umpire-in-chief shall stand behind the catcher. This umpire usually is called the plate umpire. The umpire-in-chief's duties shall be to:
(7) inform the official scorer of the official batting order; and any changes in the lineups and batting order, on request;

Wow, that's just super. What does it have to do with this thread which began: "Is there a minimum play rule for 10 yr old Dizzy Dean AllStar?

[Rich Ives]

"What does it have to do with this thread which began . . "


What's Tee's point in ranting about it's not the umpire's job.

Fact is, in LL, is IS part of the umpire's job - he just doesn't want it to be true.

Just because the big dogs don't like it doesn't change it.

[Tim C]

It has nothing to do with umpiring . . . it is only about coaches cheating.

No Little League Umpire I have talked to has EVER kept track of "innings" that people play crap.

I will leave the thread since it is a Rat issue and nothing to do with umpires.

Squeak on!

[DG]

I could look at my game sheet and tell how many innnings each pitcher has pitched, and when one is removed, how many trips it took. But I am keeping this to know whether a pitcher removed can return. I don't keep track of innings for any other players.

[Tim C]

Is a "Game sheet" your line-up card.

You are the first umpire I have ever talked (written) to that actually keeps track of innings pitched.

How can that impact a game?

I mean if you were working and had a pitcher replaced by trips wouldn't you just know it?

Also, I don't think that in all my years I have ever had a pitcher return to a game (other than once I did have a rat bring in the LH first baseman to pitch to a LH hitter then switch him back for the original pitcher who had gone to first).

I have just never known an umpire to keep records like you mention.

[LilLeaguer]

Originally posted by Tim C
No Little League Umpire I have talked to has EVER kept track of "innings" that people play crap.

We started running substitutions officially through the UiC in our District tournaments last year. I was a little overwhelmed, but I'm doing better this year, partly due to Tee's useful primer on the subject. (I had to add the part about keeping track of the inning of the substitution.)

In my district, the DA has asked the TD's to run substitutions this way. Furthermore, the UiC is supposed to warn a coach about a proposed substitution that would violate the participation rules. (I don't keep track of ABs, so I have to ask the scorekeeper about the 1AB portion of the rule.)

We also get lineup cards that the TD has approved that indicate whether any players are ineligible to pitch because of previous participation. Again, we are expected to prevent a protest in this area as well.

An error isn't always a cheating attempt; some of these managers are in their first tournament, and they aren't used to the rules or the scrutiny.

Since I'm certain that the District Administrator, not Tee, defines what umpires in our tournaments will do, I haven't asked why he does this. I assume that in order to avoid protests, he wants two pairs of eyes (the Uic and the official scorekeeper) looking at each substitution.

-LL

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
Is a "Game sheet" your line-up card.

You are the first umpire I have ever talked (written) to that actually keeps track of innings pitched.

How can that impact a game?

I mean if you were working and had a pitcher replaced by trips wouldn't you just know it?

Also, I don't think that in all my years I have ever had a pitcher return to a game (other than once I did have a rat bring in the LH first baseman to pitch to a LH hitter then switch him back for the original pitcher who had gone to first).

I have just never known an umpire to keep records like you mention.

The lineup is what the coaches give me. My game sheet is a pre-printed sheet I have developed where I keep up with stuff, off the lineup sheet, where I only keep up with lineup changes. Stuff like offensive and defensive trips, courtesy runners for pitchers and catchers (in Fed), team warnings, ejections (if any), and if there have been no subs until late in the game I keep up with them there also. Because of the way I keep it, I can tell you how many innings each pitcher pitched, and on what trip they were removed. Pitcher's don't return very often after being removed, but when they do, I will know if they are eligible to do so. I don't have too much problem remembering when 2 trips in an inning (OBR) happens, but in FED it's the 4th trip that gets the pitcher removed, and if I don't keep a record I will not know when that happens. Somtimes coaches (FED) don't know how many trips they have made (imagine that) so they will ask before they go out if they have a trip left. After the 3rd trip I will let them know that was the 3rd trip.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
"What does it have to do with this thread which began . . "


What's Tee's point in ranting about it's not the umpire's job.

Fact is, in LL, is IS part of the umpire's job - he just doesn't want it to be true.

Just because the big dogs don't like it doesn't change it.

When one has to change the subject instead of answering the question, I would guess that means he has no answer.

I guess this is what passes as honesty for a Rat.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by DG
in FED it's the 4th trip that gets the pitcher removed, and if I don't keep a record I will not know when that happens. Somtimes coaches (FED) don't know how many trips they have made (imagine that) so they will ask before they go out if they have a trip left. After the 3rd trip I will let them know that was the 3rd trip.

I would hope you keep track of that. The rule book requires it, and it will save you a lot of trouble if the coach thinks it is his 3rd visit and it is actually his 4th.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by LilLeaguer
We started running substitutions officially through the UiC in our District tournaments last year...

In my district, the DA has asked the TD's to run substitutions this way. Furthermore, the UiC is supposed to warn a coach about a proposed substitution that would violate the participation rules. (I don't keep track of ABs, so I have to ask the scorekeeper about the 1AB portion of the rule.)

Check it out Rich. Here is a guy who works LL games who says that he has to ask the scorekeeper if to see if the coach is trying to cheat.

LLeaguer, why does the TD make you keep track of the minimum play, when you are only able to keep track of half of it? That makes no sense at all. Why not just tell the scorekeeper to do it all himself, and it the coach tries to make a wrong sub, to yell something out?

And I am still awaiting a respose to the questions I asked earlier.

How can an umpire keep track of minimum play if only the starters are listed on the lineup card?

[kylejt]

"How can an umpire keep track of minimum play if only the starters are listed on the lineup card?"

Fairly easily, but only the defensive end of it. We don't track AB's, so we've only got half the story. Most LL umpires, that are any good, keep track of who's in and out, and when.

Tim, little kids baseball seems to set your hair on fire. I mean, you really go out of your way to get upset about LL baseball. Why is that?

Some folks just step over it. You step right in the middle of it, and then complain about the c#@* on your shoes. I'm not really complaining, because it's actually quite funny to see how you spin out of control over this stuff. Please keep it rolling, just don't blow a gasket.

[Dave Hensley]

I think y'all are reading more into Rich's position than he's actually saying. The only real "involvement" with minimum play rules a Little League umpire is expected to have during tournament play is to handle the protest if an MPR protest is lodged before the umpires leave the field.

Umpires are not expected or required to monitor a team's compliance with MPR in "real-time" during the game. Some umpires, acting in the spirit of rules Rich has quoted which implore all league officials, including umpires, to do whatever they can to prevent and avoid protest situations, will "remind" coaches during the game about their MPR requirements.

Handling protests and issuing such "reminders" is about as "involved" in MPR as the umpire gets, though.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I think y'all are reading more into Rich's position than he's actually saying. The only real "involvement" with minimum play rules a Little League umpire is expected to have during tournament play is to handle the protest if an MPR protest is lodged before the umpires leave the field.

Umpires are not expected or required to monitor a team's compliance with MPR in "real-time" during the game. Some umpires, acting in the spirit of rules Rich has quoted which implore all league officials, including umpires, to do whatever they can to prevent and avoid protest situations, will "remind" coaches during the game about their MPR requirements.

Handling protests and issuing such "reminders" is about as "involved" in MPR as the umpire gets, though.

That is exactly the opposite of what Rich is saying. He quoted like 20 rules, which have nothing do with MPR, but he acts like they have some bearing on this situation.

You say that umpires are not required to monitor MPR in real time, but Rich Ives disagrees.

Also, if you know some guy is violating MPR, then tell the manager. But unless this guy is getting pinch ran for after he just pinch hit, how is the umpire going to know?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
I think y'all are reading more into Rich's position than he's actually saying.

With all that he's claimed, that would be difficult.