Balk again??

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man
Tony said he paused, and then made a pitch. The question is was that apart of his normal motion. If it was not, then it is a balk. That is all I am saying. That is how I interpret the rules and this play the way it is described. You have the right to not agree with my opinion. I am calling a balk. You have said nothing to change my mind.

Remember this is also based on what you are thinking from the story.

Wrong there, too.

Well, guys; we have the final answer: PS2 doesn't care if he calls it correctly, and nothing anyone can say or write can change his mind.

BTW, I not only "have the right" to disagree with you, I have the duty to do so, 'cause you are 150% dead wrong.

Likely you are in an area w/o protests, 'cause you'd lose 'em if they had 'em.

[PS2Man]

I am not wrong at all. You just have a different view of the play than I do. You have yet to deal with the rule other than say it does not apply. That does not make any since from my standpoint. The rules say the motion must be normal. The motion does not sound normal. If the motion is not normal, it is a balk.

If you are going to have a protest, you have to give more information than it is wrong.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by PS2Man
I am not wrong at all. You just have a different view of the play than I do. You have yet to deal with the rule other than say it does not apply. That does not make any since from my standpoint. The rules say the motion must be normal. The motion does not sound normal. If the motion is not normal, it is a balk.

If you are going to have a protest, you have to give more information than it is wrong.

Having read this thread to this point, score one for CB.

This is beyond "point of view", this is "right and wrong" and CB is right.

[Rich]

Originally posted by officialtony
largeone59,
Thanks for jumping in. I went on the theory that he was doing it to decieve the runner and it was NOT part of his natural delivery motion. Was your buddy doing it to decieve and was it part of his natural motion? I will defer to majority opinion on this one. I just want to do the right thing. Also, as I stated, there was a pause, albeit slight, which aided my decision. You indicated that your buddy did not pause.
Thanks for the input. Right now my jury is still out, although I am beiginning to think I may have been too quick on the trigger on this one. I wish I had more time to think it through when it happened.

There is no rule requiring F1 to deliver the same way each time.

[Rich]

Originally posted by PS2Man

I never stated that in the rules you had to deceive the runner in order to have a balk. I am saying that the motion is not normal. If the motion is not a normal part of the pitcher's motion, then it can be considered illegal.

"Failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery."---Rule 6-2-4d

Now if your interpretation is different that is fine with me.

What interpretation? You are, quite simply, wrong. And looking for boogers.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man
I am not wrong at all. You just have a different view of the play than I do. You have yet to deal with the rule other than say it does not apply. That does not make any since from my standpoint. The rules say the motion must be normal. The motion does not sound normal. If the motion is not normal, it is a balk.

If you are going to have a protest, you have to give more information than it is wrong.

Geez, man, how hard is it:
WHAT PART OF THAT RULE DO YOU SAY "applies"?

Ya' gotta actually read the words, IN THE ORDER THEY ARE WRITTEN, and figger out what they say.

WHERE in the rule you cite does it actually SAY "If the motion is not normal, it is a balk"? I'll help you out here: NOWHERE!!

Quoth you: "The rules say the motion must be normal"
Me: WHERE? Not in the rule you quoted. Read it: what words say THAT? That rule says, in fairly plain english, that it is a balk:
1. IF pitcher makes any motion as he habitually makes to pitch [Tony's F1 DID NOT make his "habitual" delivery}; AND
2. IF F1 THEN fails to deliver a pitch in an uninterrupted motion.[Tony's guy delivered, uninterrupted is an open question]

There is not a damn word in that rule that says that F1 can only use his "habitual" motion; nor a single word that even suggests that "the motion must be normal", or it's a balk.

Have you noticed that no-one agrees with you? Tony called the balk, but wasn't sure, and came here; and I'll bet you that, even if he still thinks that this F1 balked [and maybe he did, BECAUSE HE "PAUSED"], he doesn't agree [now, at least] with the BS you've been posting about "he has to use his usual motion".

[mbyron]

CB is right. Listen to what everyone is saying.

1. No rule requires the pitcher to pitch with the same motion every time.

2. The rule you quoted requires the pitcher to come to the plate once he begins ANY motion you judge to be the start of the pitch. In the case under consideration, F1 DID come to the plate:
a. If he starts a pitching motion, then he must pitch.
b. He did start a pitching motion.
c. He did pitch.
Hence according to the rule that you have cited, there is no violation here, and so no balk.

3. The only issue in the case at hand, and again CB is right about this, is whether he paused too long. That's a different violation, and has nothing to do with "normal" or "habitual" or "usual" motion. And most of us are saying, you had to be there. For my part, it sounds like a legal pitch, but it is hard to know without seeing it.

It's ok to admit that you're wrong, you know. We're all fallible on this board, and you won't make any progress saying it's just a different viewpoint. If you stop learning, you're dead, so embrace life and learn!

[Tim C]

If I could post to this thread (I cannot because Mr. OOO forbids me from being in his threads) I would comment that PS2 is waaay wrong.

There is no rule that says that F1 must deliver a pitch the same every time (if we didd that would eliminate the slide step), also a 'pause' in the motion does not equal a balk, and finally, IIITBTSB.

CB, Garth, mbyron, and Rich have it nailed , , , PS has taken a called third.

[UmpJM]

PS2Man,

Thanks for posting the (partial) text of the FED rule you were basing your ruling on:

""Failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery."---Rule 6-2-4d"

Seeing the actual wording of the rule, I am still compelled to agree with cb in all respects concerning his comments regarding the legality of the delivery.

What the rule says is that if a pitcher (who has come legally "set") makes any movement which indicates (to the umpire) that he has initiated his "delivery" he must complete his delivery without stopping (i.e. "in a continuous motion").

It says nothing about him being required to complete his delivery in the same/similar way he did a previous time.

What makes this really confusing (to me, anyway) is that he's not even required to "pitch to the batter" following such an "habitual movement", despite what the wording obviously says. I say this because he may (as an alternative to delivering a pitch) make a pick-off throw or feint after making a movement with which he "habitually" initiates his delivery of a pitch to the batter (as long as he does so legally).

To summarize:

There is no requirement that the pitcher pitch to the batter or make a pick-off move the same way every time.

Doing something illegal in the delivery (e.g. coming to a complete stop after initiating a delivery) the same way every time does not legalize it.

As described, the only possible balk in officailtony's initial description is if the pitcher failed to meet the "continuous motion" requirement (in the umpire's judgement).

JM






[Edited by CoachJM on Apr 10th, 2005 at 11:01 PM]

[officialtony]

Gents,
I just got back to read nearly all the replies. I want to thank PS and CB for their back and forth and Garth and Rich for expounding also.
I feel quite comfortable in saying I blew it based on the very good input by all. While I feel that at the time, I " saw " a discernable pause, I am now questioning whether I saw a pause or was just confused by his different motion. Actually based on what I have read, I'm sure I blew it. Fortunately, I can say my goof, did not cost this team the game ( that is really an issue I prefer not to deal with ), since I don't want my error to dictate the outcome of any game. I will tuck this one in my memory book and try to look for the correct signs of a balk and not judge on the things that are percieved instead of written in rules. Again, thanks for guiding me to understand where I went wrong on this one.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


What interpretation? You are, quite simply, wrong. And looking for boogers.

I never said he had to deliver the ball the same way. But the pitcher cannot just do something that is completely different than their normal behavior either. Now that is what the rulebook says. Take it or leave it.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man

I never said he had to deliver the ball the same way. But the pitcher cannot just do something that is completely different than their normal behavior either. Now that is what the rulebook says. Take it or leave it.

That so?

Also Originally posted by PS2Man

@3:26 pm
BALK!
Was this motion consistent with his normal motion to the plate? If not, I have a balk


@4:52 pm
... You cannot just change your motion....

@5:55 pm
...The rulebook uses the word habitual as their description of what the pitcher can do. All that means is their movement has to be part of their regular or normal motion. If that movement is not normal, then you can call a balk....

@6:30pm
...If the motion is not a normal part of the pitcher's motion, then it can be considered illegal. ...

@7:23pm
...The question is was that apart of his normal motion. If it was not, then it is a balk. That is all I am saying. ...

You just don't read so good, do you? Not even your own stuff.

"Now that is what the rulebook says."
I'll ask again, tho' I don't really expect an answer: WHERE does the rulebook say that? In this reality, it actually doesn't, you know.

"Take it or leave it"

I'll leave it. Taking advice from someone who is illiterate, pathologically incapable of admitting error, stupid AND dishonest [Nah! I never said that he had to pitch the same way every time!] is always a bad idea.

PS2Man - 1 year's experience, repeated 22 times. It would be sad if it wasn't so freeking annoying.

[PS2Man]

I love little trolls that try to take everything someone says out of context of what the conversation was about. You cannot change your normal motion all of a sudden. For those that can think, that does not mean that your leg cannot move a little bit, or your kick is not as high at one point. Or doing a high leg kick one time and the next minute doing the slide step. But if you did not have a hitch in your motion all game long than you get a little hitch in your motion, you cannot do that. I have been umpire for some time and I do not see kids changing their motion purposely very often. When they do something like that it stands out like sour thumb. I am not talking about a minor change. I am talking about a major change. Not sure how old you are but you might not remember Louis Tiant of the Boston Red Sox? His motion was ugly, but was apart of his normal motion. He had a hitch in his motion and he did it ever single time. If I have a pitcher that does the Luis Tiant motion and was pitching looked more like Randy Johnson all game long, I am balking his ***. You do not have to do that, but I will. I have been doing this over 20 years and I cannot think of any time that a kid did something that unusual and it was not balked. Now that is what I am doing. I really would like a very specific rule reference to back up your claim. Just telling me I am wrong is not enough.

[DG]

Last summer I had this situation, 18 year old players. R3 and R2, close game, middle inning, pitcher in the windup. He begins his motion and R3 starts for home. Pitcher sees this, stops his delivery, as if he is trying to decide if what to do and then quickly starts his throw home. By the time he threw home I have already called a balk, runner slides into the plate, the throw is wide and he would have been safe if a balk had not been called. This was on OBR rules game, so after calling the balk I had to hang in there with the pitch until it arrived. When asked, "Coach, he stopped and then started again". The only difference in the outcome was that R2 goes to 3rd due to the balk, and would not have otherwise.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man [w/ insertions by cbfoulds]
I love little trolls that try to take everything someone says out of context of what the conversation was about. Hate having your own words quoted back to you to refute your revisionist lies, huh? You cannot change your normal motion all of a sudden.Says who? Says what rule? Not the one you cited. For those that can think, that does not mean that your leg cannot move a little bit, or your kick is not as high at one point. Or doing a high leg kick one time and the next minute doing the slide step. But if you did not have a hitch in your motion all game long than you get a little hitch in your motion, you cannot do that. I have been umpire for some time and I do not see kids changing their motion purposely very often. When they do something like that it stands out like sour thumb. Obvious ain't a balk either. I am not talking about a minor change. I am talking about a major change. Not sure how old you are scaring the crap out of 50 but you might not remember Louis Tiant of the Boston Red Sox? His motion was ugly, but was apart of his normal motion. He had a hitch in his motion and he did it ever single time. If I have a pitcher that does the Luis Tiant motion and was pitching looked more like Randy Johnson all game long, I am balking his ***. You do not have to do that, but I will. I have been doing this over 20 years and I cannot think of any time that a kid did something that unusual and it was not balked. There must be a lot of incompetent umpires where you live. Now that is what I am doing. I really would like a very specific rule reference to back up your claim. Uh: "ain't no rule that prohibits that"? Just telling me I am wrong is not enough.

There are about 125 years of combined experience telling you you are wrong. NOBODY agrees with you. You have yet to cite a single Rule that actually says what you claim is "what the Rules say". You are saying that you are gonna do it your way come he11 or high water, so there, PPffftttth .....

And you are calling ME a troll?

Are you by chance related to a guy that posts as Fish on the NFHS site?

[Edited by cbfoulds on Apr 11th, 2005 at 01:00 AM]