Balk again??

[officialtony]

JV game. Runner at 2nd. Pitching from the set position. the pitcher lifts his left leg and turns his body to 2nd base and leans at the runner and pauses just for a snitch and then comes to the plate. This is a hard one to describe but his body and leg do go towards 2nd a bit and he does pause ever so slightly and then turns to deliver the pitch. What bothers me is the discernible pause and the left leg and body leaning toward 2nd before he comes to the plate. With this little bit of information could I get an opinion as to a balk or what to look for to make sure this is/isn't a balk?
Thanks in advance.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by officialtony
JV game. Runner at 2nd. Pitching from the set position. the pitcher lifts his left leg and turns his body to 2nd base and leans at the runner and pauses just for a snitch and then comes to the plate. This is a hard one to describe but his body and leg do go towards 2nd a bit and he does pause ever so slightly and then turns to deliver the pitch. What bothers me is the discernible pause and the left leg and body leaning toward 2nd before he comes to the plate. With this little bit of information could I get an opinion as to a balk or what to look for to make sure this is/isn't a balk?
Thanks in advance.

IIITBTSB [well, damn near]

This "pause": was it longer than that necessitated by the laws of physics in F1's change of direction [i.e.: if'n it'd been his "set", you'd say he did stop]? And nothing of F1's body [not an arm or a leg, or his trunk] was still moving during this "pause"?

Hard to say w/o seeing it, but it sounds to me like nothin' more than F1 "rearing back" to bring the heat.

Now, if he comes to a stock-statute-dead stop and hangs there for a second or so with his foot in mid-air like something out of "The Karate Kid": OK, maybe I've got a balk for failing to deliver in a continuous, uninterrupted motion.

But the leg & body turn [and even the "lean"] by themselves mean squat; and 9 times out of 10 when I hear a coach get excited about a ?balk? like this, what really has their shorts in a knot is they thought F1 was gonna go to 2d Base, not home, due to the turn of the body & leg motion. Sorry, coach, his whole stinkin' free foot can go back of the rubber & his body can turn to face Pluto for all I care, & F1 can still go home, as long as he does it in a continuous motion.

[PS2Man]

Was this motion consistent with his normal motion to the plate? If not, I have a balk. It is obvious that he was trying to deceive the runner and fake his intentions.

[officialtony]

Gents. Thank you for responding.
I did in fact call a balk. I'll tell you why and perhaps get your feedback again. First, listening to cbfoulds, I feel like I may have erred. His pause, while distinct and percieved by me, was not so clear to everyone else. But it was his pause that caused me to think about calling the balk. What really caused me to call it was in line with the reply by PS2man. It was not his natural delivery. He did this in the 3rd inning and only with the runner on 2nd base. I really felt like he was trying to decieve the runner. AND it was not consistent with his delivery up to this point. I discussed it with my partner ( I was the PU )at the end of the innng and he confirmed my feelings. The problem is, he ( the BU ) had turned his head to check on the runner at 2nd ( and I still can't figure out what he was looking for ), and didn't see the move. So I was explaining it to him, much like I explained it to you. He agreed with my call, but I don't know if he REALLY understood OR REALLY agreed. I just want to be sure if I'm wrong, that I don't call it again. And if I am right, I want to be right for the correct reasons.

Thanks for the help

[largeone59]

This doesn't seem like a balk to me. My buddy who pitched for years did a similar move- no pause- and never got balked for it.... i tend to agree with cb on this one.

[officialtony]

largeone59,
Thanks for jumping in. I went on the theory that he was doing it to decieve the runner and it was NOT part of his natural delivery motion. Was your buddy doing it to decieve and was it part of his natural motion? I will defer to majority opinion on this one. I just want to do the right thing. Also, as I stated, there was a pause, albeit slight, which aided my decision. You indicated that your buddy did not pause.
Thanks for the input. Right now my jury is still out, although I am beiginning to think I may have been too quick on the trigger on this one. I wish I had more time to think it through when it happened.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by largeone59
This doesn't seem like a balk to me. My buddy who pitched for years did a similar move- no pause- and never got balked for it.... i tend to agree with cb on this one.

This might have been apart of your buddy's motion. It sounds like this player did something specific to deceive the runner. You cannot just change your motion and stop. I am using 6-2-4d as my reference.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by officialtony
Gents. Thank you for responding.
I did in fact call a balk. I'll tell you why and perhaps get your feedback again. First, listening to cbfoulds, I feel like I may have erred. His pause, while distinct and percieved by me, was not so clear to everyone else. But it was his pause that caused me to think about calling the balk. What really caused me to call it was in line with the reply by PS2man. It was not his natural delivery. He did this in the 3rd inning and only with the runner on 2nd base. I really felt like he was trying to decieve the runner. AND it was not consistent with his delivery up to this point. I discussed it with my partner ( I was the PU )at the end of the innng and he confirmed my feelings. The problem is, he ( the BU ) had turned his head to check on the runner at 2nd ( and I still can't figure out what he was looking for ), and didn't see the move. So I was explaining it to him, much like I explained it to you. He agreed with my call, but I don't know if he REALLY understood OR REALLY agreed. I just want to be sure if I'm wrong, that I don't call it again. And if I am right, I want to be right for the correct reasons.

Thanks for the help

Ok, I'll start w/ : everything that follows is IMHO, OK?

1st problem: PS2 has the rule analysis backwards.
Oh, yeah, and deception [even intentional] by F1 ain't necessarily illegal, much less a balk.

F1 can change his delivery to the plate with every pitch, if he wants to: "his customary delivery" becomes an issue only if he begins same and then DOES NOT deliver to the plate.

You will look for a long time without finding anything in the rule book that says if F1 fools the batter or runner, it's a balk. He!!, that's what F1 is SUPPOSED to do - fool 'em. There are certain, enumerated offenses which are punished as a balk: which one of them did this F1 comit? If you can't point to one, good bet he didn't balk.

The bottom line in your sitch comes down to the "pause". I suspect [but obviously cannot know] that the pause only became real significant to you as it began to dawn on you that maybe you'd errored. I HAVE seen kids "hang up" as if they might be stepping to a base, and that's often a balk. As I said earlier, though - as a simple matter of physics, there is a "pause" of some kind any time there is a change of direction. We all know that a change of direction is not a "clear and discernable" stop for BB purposes. Also, in order for F1's motion not to be "continuous and uninterrupted", EVERYTHING - both arms, both legs, his trunk - has to completely stop moving all at once and together. While this CAN happen, I suspect [but again, cannot know] that this did not happen in your sitch.

In conclusion, forget about what F1 was/is trying to do, 'cause in general the rule book does not care: focus on what he actually DID. If what he actually did violated one of the specific rules defining a balk - nail him.

[PS2Man]

It is not an automatic in my opinion. I just said it sounds like a balk to me. It does not sound to me from the story that the pitcher was doing something in his normal motion. The rulebook uses the word habitual as their description of what the pitcher can do. All that means is their movement has to be part of their regular or normal motion. If that movement is not normal, then you can call a balk. Kids at that level are usually not that smart enough to do little things to make it look normal. I am calling a balk in this case. I have also called a balk in this situation.

[largeone59]

haha, once again, i agree with cb. Took the words right out of my mouth.... err.. keyboard. Judging that if, and only if, there was no stop, then this is legal. If you judged there was a stop, then balk 'em!

tony, i've never heard of the rule you're citing- where you have to make your delivery look the same every time, or it's a balk. can you give me the rule ref?


Also, just to clarify, my buddy's move was: when he'd go from the stretch, he'd come set, almost do a kick directly towards second base (shoulders, head, everything square with 2nd, but pivot foot remained still), then step towards home and throw. It's hard to put into words... i wish i had a video camera and a video editor right about now so i could act it out and post it.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man
It is not an automatic in my opinion. I just said it sounds like a balk to me. It does not sound to me from the story that the pitcher was doing something in his normal motion. The rulebook uses the word habitual as their description of what the pitcher can do. All that means is their movement has to be part of their regular or normal motion. If that movement is not normal, then you can call a balk. Kids at that level are usually not that smart enough to do little things to make it look normal. I am calling a balk in this case. I have also called a balk in this situation.

I added emphasis to the part where you go wrong.

I'll bet you that you cannot quote me [give me the words from the book, please] a rule that says if F1 deviates from his habitual motion, it's a balk. EXCEPT for if he starts his habitual motion and does not deliver to the plate: this F1 delivered.

[PS2Man]

Originally posted by cbfoulds


I'll bet you that you cannot quote me [give me the words from the book, please] a rule that says if F1 deviates from his habitual motion, it's a balk. EXCEPT for if he starts his habitual motion and does not deliver to the plate: this F1 delivered.

I never stated that in the rules you had to deceive the runner in order to have a balk. I am saying that the motion is not normal. If the motion is not a normal part of the pitcher's motion, then it can be considered illegal.

"Failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery."---Rule 6-2-4d

Now if your interpretation is different that is fine with me.

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by PS2Man

I never stated that in the rules you had to deceive the runner in order to have a balk. I am saying that the motion is not normal. If the motion is not a normal part of the pitcher's motion, then it can be considered illegal.

"Failing to pitch to the batter in a continuous motion immediately after any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery."---Rule 6-2-4d

Now if your interpretation is different that is fine with me.

What is there to interpret?

Where in 6-2-4d does it say that it is a balk to use a motion to pitch that he does not "habitually use in his delivery"?

We agree, I believe, that Tony's F1 DID NOT make ...any movement of any part of the body such as he habitually uses in his delivery...[I mean, that WAS your point, right?: it wasn't his habitual delivery], so THAT part of the rule don't apply. And I hope that we agree that Tony's F1 DID NOT "fail.. to pitch to the batter...", 'cause Tony says he pitched. So what part of this rule are you "interpreting"?

[UmpJM]

officialtony,

FWIW, I am squarely in cbfould's camp on this question. As I envision the delivery from your description, the only thing that could be considered a balk would be the pause. And, as cb pointed out, that means his entire body would have to be motionless and it would have to more than just a "change in direction".

I'm guessing from your comments (as well as those made by PS2Man) that what's causing you to consider this a balk is the phrase (from OBR, not FED - sorry, I don't have a FED rulebook handy):

"....From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. ...."

which is found in the rules describing the legal pitching positions. Now, I don't even know if the identical wording is used in the FED rulebook or not, but I have been taught that the principles are the same (despite the numerous differences between what is legal and illegal for an "in contact" pitcher under OBR vs. FED) in regard to this aspect of legal/illegal deliveries.

Let's take the easy part first - "interruption". This means that an "in contact" pitcher cannot start to do something and then stop "in midstream". Hence, cb's very on target statement"

"The bottom line in your sitch comes down to the "pause"."

If, in the sole judgement of the umpire(s), this "pause" constituted an "interruption", it's a balk. If not, it's not.

The only "exception" to this proscription is that a pitcher may "stop" a pick-off move to 2B or 3B before completing the throw. However, even in this case, he must complete the "direct step" towards the base without "interruption".

Now for the trickier part - "alteration". Now, in "plain English" it is a perfectly reasonable interpretation to infer that this means that "the pitcher must do it the same way every time." However, this is not what it means in the context of the rules of baseball.

In this context, it means that a pitcher cannot start to do one thing and then change it into something else. Now this a little tricky, because when a pitcher who has come set starts his "motion", we don't yet know what he has "started" to do.

Let's take a RHP who is "set" (I'm inferring from your description that the pitcher you balked was a RHP - the same would apply to a LHP, only in "mirror image".)

Once he begins to lift his free foot toards "balance" we know he has "started" to do one of three things (we'll assume bases loaded):

1. Pickoff throw/feint to 3B

2. Pickoff throw/feint to 2B

3. Pitch to the batter.

Once his free foot crosses the "plane" of the rubber (Back edge for OBR, and, I believe, front edge for FED) he has started to do one of two things:

1. Pickoff throw/feint to 2B

2. Pitch to the batter.

Once his motion (foot, shoulder, pretty much anything) reverses towards the direction of home, there is only one thing left:

1. Pitch to the batter.

As cb has already stated, there is no requirement that a pitcher "do it the same way every time" in either delivering a pitch or in attempting a pickoff. As long as he complies with the legal delivery requirements and avoids the balk proscriptions, he can do it differently every time (this might wreak havoc with his control, but it would be perfectly legal).

JM

[Edited by CoachJM on Apr 10th, 2005 at 07:19 PM]

[PS2Man]

Tony said he paused, and then made a pitch. The question is was that apart of his normal motion. If it was not, then it is a balk. That is all I am saying. That is how I interpret the rules and this play the way it is described. You have the right to not agree with my opinion. I am calling a balk. You have said nothing to change my mind.

Remember this is also based on what you are thinking from the story.