Pickoffs from the windup?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

And I - and the MLBUM - agree with you. Reread Tee's post: He says the manager isn't going to come out at all. Just over-reaching on his part, I guess.

I guess you and I just read what Tee wrote differently:

Balks,as balls and strikes, are not an issue that can be argued.

I read that as he will not allow the skipper to "argue" a balk call. Neither will I. And according to your agreement with my post, neither will you.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by GarthB

I guess you and I just read what Tee wrote differently:

Balks,as balls and strikes, are not an issue that can be argued.

I read that as he will not allow the skipper to "argue" a balk call. Neither will I. And according to your agreement with my post, neither will you.

I'll type this slowly, so everyone can follow along. (grin) Tee said: "As you could not enter the field to talk with me it seems impossible to use your trap in a game where real umpires umpire."

Tee is not the only umpire who thinks that those who leave their position to "discuss" a balk are to be automatically ejected.

Wiggle how you will, that's what he said. And what he said is wrong.

[orioles35]

With the exception of balls and strikes...and as long as the coach is being respectful, what's the harm in talking to him? I think we all can agree that we prefer talking face to face than having to listen to *****ing and whining from the dugout.

[Tim C]

I do not work any non-Fed baseball.

I work high school baseball and American Legion (they call it that here but it is still played under FED rules).

Even with that . . .

When I call a balk I tell what it is for . . . (I give an idea what it was, "hey, he has to PAUSE somewhere"). . .

If a coach/manager then tries to enter the field to argue the call (matters not to me FED or OBR if I worked that book) I put up the standard "STOP" sign . . .

It would be a coach's/manager's choice to come out further. He knows there is a possible penalty.

No Alexander Pope here, CC. Coaches/Managers do not come out in the games where I umpire. Pretty simple from my view.



[Edited by bob jenkins on Mar 22nd, 2005 at 07:52 AM]

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress

Originally posted by GarthB


I'll let Tee speak for himself, but in my view and experience, there is a world of difference between a manager "questioning" the reason for a balk and "arguing" the balk. I have no problem with the manager, or in my case, the skipper coming out and asking why I called a balk. If after receiving the answer he chooses to remain and argue, he do so at his own peril.

And I - and the MLBUM - agree with you. Reread Tee's post: He says the manager isn't going to come out at all. Just over-reaching on his part, I guess.

I guess you and I just read what Tee wrote differently:

Balks,as balls and strikes, are not an issue that can be argued.

I read that as he will not allow the skipper to "argue" a balk call. Neither will I. And according to your agreement with my post, neither will you.

I'll type this slowly, so everyone can follow along. (grin) Tee said: "As you could not enter the field to talk with me it seems impossible to use your trap in a game where real umpires umpire."

Tee is not the only umpire who thinks that those who leave their position to "discuss" a balk are to be automatically ejected.

Wiggle how you will, that's what he said. And what he said is wrong.

Good Lord, Carl why are you trying to pick a fight with me? Grin all you'd like, it has no effect on reality. I stated what I would do. Amazingly, you agreed.

I said I was not speaking for Tim, and then I quoted an exact line from in his post. And you want to argue quote for quote?

I don't care. No wiggling here. Tee's a big boy and can speak for himself. If you want to argue about Tee's post, argue with Tee.

Please.

[BayouUmp]

Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov


IMO

BALK!
BALK in FED! BALK in OBR! BALK in China! BALK on Mars!

"The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free.
(Let's call this next sentence #1)
From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration.

He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot. "

The 1st move this pitcher made was a step back with his free foot. Once he did that...he's committed to a pitch. Reason, for a RHP in Windup position, the first step in his natural delivery is always a step back with the left foot.

Now, you'll argue what about (2) below:

"From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, "

I'd argue right back..., but look at (3).
"or (3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first."

Now, I don't think #3 is the reason for a BALK is this sitch, but it makes about as much sense to argue #3 as it does to ignore #1 while arguing #2.

If you look at the rules individually, you can find ways around them. We (umpires) can't do that. That a Rat's job....Notice I didn't say coach.

Yeah, OBR says you can step toward a base from WUP, but if that step breaks another rule....it's not legal.

Coaches, teach your kids proper mechanics and fundamentals....leave the cracks to the Rats.

[Rich]

Originally posted by GarthB

I'll let Tee speak for himself, but in my view and experience, there is a world of difference between a manager "questioning" the reason for a balk and "arguing" the balk. I have no problem with the manager, or in my case, the skipper coming out and asking why I called a balk. If after receiving the answer he chooses to remain and argue, he does so at his own peril.

[Edited by GarthB on Mar 21st, 2005 at 04:26 PM]

I support this as well. I have no problem with the manager coming out and asking why the balk was called. I'll answer questions, be cordial, etc., but I will not allow a protracted argument on a balk.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov


IMO

BALK!
BALK in FED! BALK in OBR! BALK in China! BALK on Mars!

"The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his entire pivot foot on, or in front of and touching and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot free.
(Let's call this next sentence #1)
From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration.

He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot. "

The 1st move this pitcher made was a step back with his free foot. Once he did that...he's committed to a pitch. Reason, for a RHP in Windup position, the first step in his natural delivery is always a step back with the left foot.

Now, you'll argue what about (2) below:

"From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner, "

I'd argue right back..., but look at (3).
"or (3) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). In disengaging the rubber the pitcher must step off with his pivot foot and not his free foot first."

Now, I don't think #3 is the reason for a BALK is this sitch, but it makes about as much sense to argue #3 as it does to ignore #1 while arguing #2.

If you look at the rules individually, you can find ways around them. We (umpires) can't do that. That a Rat's job....Notice I didn't say coach.

Yeah, OBR says you can step toward a base from WUP, but if that step breaks another rule....it's not legal.

Coaches, teach your kids proper mechanics and fundamentals....leave the cracks to the Rats.

I disagree with your impression of the move. I guess there's room to disagree since the video quality is somewhat lacking.

It's nothing more than a jump/spin move. All the pitcher is doing is a quick, and simultaneous, alignment of his feet to make a throw. I don't see any one thing happening before another.

The only thing "unnatural" about the move is that the pitcher doesn't immediately make the throw - he hesitates, apparently under the impression that the shortstop needed more time to get to the bag - and then he throws. Not throwing is not a violation since there is no requirement to throw the ball to second as there is to first.

Also, I can see you are similarly afflicted with coach phobia. Oh - sorry - RAT phobia. I didn't mean to use some foreign and unfamiliar lexicon.

Umpires who, at length, bash coaches speak volumes. It's like the unpopular kid at school who thinks everybody is a jerk because everybody hates him, never once considering that it might be HIM.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 21st, 2005 at 10:07 PM]

[largeone59]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov
Now, I don't think #3 is the reason for a BALK is this sitch, but it makes about as much sense to argue #3 as it does to ignore #1 while arguing #2.

Well, you CAN ignore 2 of these and pick one, since the connective in these parts of the sentence is "OR" (not "AND", which would mean that all 3 requirements would needed to be fufilled).

I think this is legal. He stepped to the base and didn't make any motion associated with his pitch while off the rubber.

[cbfoulds]

Tee & Garth:
Not often I'd see myself defending a Rat; but on one hand, I feel some sympathy for Emerling's advice. How, exactly, is a coach to deal effectively with less-than-competent umpires? To deal with a gross misapplication of a rule in an otherwise judgment-based call? His method is effective and appropriate within the rules. As a coach, he needs the dummy to express and commit to the error, so it can be protested, and hopefully fixed. As someone committed to trying to call the game by the published and accepted Rules, rather than some made-up goulash, I neither resent nor fear protests.

Now: that said, I have had Rats [actually, usually youth-league wannabe mousies] try less-effective versions of this technique on me, based on: "so what you're saying ....", followed by an absurd MIS-statement of what I did, in fact say. Now, as y'all may recall, this routine usually causes me to go postal - not here, though. In fact, what they are doing is so transparently foolish, it is all I can do to stop myself laughing at them.

There is a place in the world for intelligent Rats.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov

The 1st move this pitcher made was a step back with his free foot. Once he did that...he's committed to a pitch. Reason, for a RHP in Windup position, the first step in his natural delivery is always a step back with the left foot.

Under OBR, if you concede that a pitcher can attempt a pickoff while in the windup position, then what would you accept as a legal "first move?"

If nothing else, you should accept that the free foot should go directly toward the base at which the pickoff is intended. What else could the pitcher do?

You are reading too much into the rule verbiage.

If the free foot executed what could be interpreted as a rocker step then that would require the pitcher to deliver to the batter. If he uses the appearance of doing a rocker movement as a prelude to a pickoff - that would be a balk because he is making a "pitching motion" and is failing to complete the motion by delivering to the batter.

No reasonable person would interpret what this pitcher is doing as executing a "rocker step." It is clearly a jump maneuver in an attempt to pickoff a runner.

BOTH his feet are aligning for the throw. The pivot foot happens to fall in the area directly in front of the rubber (not that it matters) and the free foot is clearly moving toward 2nd (that matters!). Perfectly legal.

I think any umpire that would balk this maneuver is simply booger picking.

Even the umpire that called it a balk gave, as his ONLY reason for it being a balk, that the pitcher simply failed to step off prior to executing the maneuver - applying the FED rule instead of the OBR rule. This was only after he hemmed and hawed about some other stuff as it slowly dawned on him the monumental mistake he had made.

The BU never made a comment other than the fact that he called the runner OUT at 2nd.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov


IMO

BALK!
BALK in FED! BALK in OBR! BALK in China! BALK on Mars!

NO BALK!
NO BALK in FED! NO BALK in OBR! NO BALK in China! NO BALK on Mars! (They don't play baseball on Mars.)

[GarthB]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
Tee & Garth:
Not often I'd see myself defending a Rat; but on one hand, I feel some sympathy for Emerling's advice. How, exactly, is a coach to deal effectively with less-than-competent umpires? To deal with a gross misapplication of a rule in an otherwise judgment-based call? His method is effective and appropriate within the rules. As a coach, he needs the dummy to express and commit to the error, so it can be protested, and hopefully fixed. As someone committed to trying to call the game by the published and accepted Rules, rather than some made-up goulash, I neither resent nor fear protests.

Now: that said, I have had Rats [actually, usually youth-league wannabe mousies] try less-effective versions of this technique on me, based on: "so what you're saying ....", followed by an absurd MIS-statement of what I did, in fact say. Now, as y'all may recall, this routine usually causes me to go postal - not here, though. In fact, what they are doing is so transparently foolish, it is all I can do to stop myself laughing at them.

There is a place in the world for intelligent Rats.

A coach with integrity could achieve the same results without being manipulative or devious. There is a room for honesty in baseball. I'm sorry, but I will reject forever the Rat approach.

I had a fantastic coach at a game tonight. Honest in his communications with me, fair with his players and opponents and genuinely interested in what was good for "the game." No mind games. No devious manipulation, no need to second guess his intent. All questions were open, blunt and honest. This type of coach does exist, just apparerently not in this thread.

[BayouUmp]

Also, I can see you are similarly afflicted with coach phobia. Oh - sorry - RAT phobia. I didn't mean to use some foreign and unfamiliar lexicon.

Umpires who, at length, bash coaches speak volumes. It's like the unpopular kid at school who thinks everybody is a jerk because everybody hates him, never once considering that it might be HIM.

I don't believe I stated that all coaches are Rats, nor do I bash coaches. Your response leads me to believe you took my post as an attack on you, therefore indicating what category you feel you belong. I don't know if you’re a Rat...I don't care.

The only phobia apparent here is yours of umpires that don’t share your opinion. You’ve stated your case, some agree, others don’t. That’s life….everyone on the playground isn’t going to like you.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by BayouUmp

I don't believe I stated that all coaches are Rats, nor do I bash coaches. Your response leads me to believe you took my post as an attack on you, therefore indicating what category you feel you belong. I don't know if you’re a Rat...I don't care.

The only phobia apparent here is yours of umpires that don’t share your opinion. You’ve stated your case, some agree, others don’t. That’s life….everyone on the playground isn’t going to like you.

Then I apologize. I just noticed the liberal use of the word "Rat" in your post.

But, you're right. There really are rat-like coaches just like there are completely incompetent umpires. Neither has a corner on the market.

I've been coaching and umpiring too long for the term to phase me. The only people that have ever referred to me as a "rat" are the internet umpires. I get along with my players ... their parents ... and work harder at keeping peace in our games than 99% of the coaches out there. So I'm pretty much immune to it. I just find it fascinating how many umpires are spring-loaded to think the absolute WORSE of coaches knowing nothing more than that they are coaches.

I'm not afraid of the possibility that you don't share my opinion that the video of the pickoff play is not a balk. That's why I made the video available. I suspected that there would be some who would LOOK for a balk in what is basically a very common maneuver - although initiated from the windup position. Had the pitcher been in the set position and performed the identical maneuver, it probably wouldn't even have occurred to you to call a balk.

It's interesting how umpires put a much more strict criteria on the pitcher simply because he initiated the move from the windup position - as if there is some kind of higher burden the pitcher must meet.

If a pitcher simply steps (in the direction of the base), in one continuous motion - no balk.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN