Pickoffs from the windup?

[LDUB]

Originally posted by David Emerling
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov

Whoever that guy is, way to take your mask off with your right hand.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by gruberted
Even though I step off with the opposite foot?

Consider these two rules:

OBR 8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:

(a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such deliver;

(g)The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate;

Really, do yourself a favor. Buy and read the rulebook.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by carldog
I guess what confuses me is Mr. Jenkins writing:

"Don't just focus on the foot. If the whole of the movement indicated a pitch (foot back, arms up, body doesn't turn), then it's a pitch. If the whole of the movement indicates a throw to first (foot back, arm cocks, body turns), then it's a pick-off attempt"

While I understand his point (and I know he is correct...I'm just trying to understand this and file it away in my thick head...) in both cases, the first motion is "foot back"...

Isn't (free) 'foot back' a motion associated with a pitchers's normal delivery to the plate? Imagine a slight delay - ever so slight - between 'foot back' and "arm cocks, body turns" . Man, my players are stealing! And caught in a run down...

You are correct ... my wording was "wrong". Replace "foot back" with "Foot to the side".

Further, in a step to the base, the foot will generally point at (toward) the base; in a step that's part of the pitching motion, the foot will generally point at the plate. (And, no, I'm not trying to start the old argument about whether the direction the toes point *requires* a throw in that direction.)

[LDUB]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone about the right hand thing.

[TwoBits]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]

Originally posted by David Emerling
Here's the maneuver: http://www.eteamz.com/HoustonHS/vide...up_pickoff.mov

I've watched the video 10 times. Small back step with free foot AND disengaging with the pivot foot to the front of the rubber...I've still got a balk.

[orioles35]

I also believe the pitcher has to break his hands apart as he's stepping off the rubber. I've had kids do half of this move correctly, stepping off with the correct foot. But they also bring both hands together over their heads, which is mimicing a windup. That's a balk.

The interpretation I've always used was for a right handed pitcher, step back with his RIGHT foot while breaking both hands apart, step back with the left foot (which effectively makes him a fielder), then he can make a throw to a base. Usually this is only effective when a runner is taking a ridiculous lead, or is being overly aggressive, thinking the pitcher hasn't remembered to pitch from the stretch.

[Edited by orioles35 on Mar 17th, 2005 at 03:34 PM]

[DG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TwoBits
[B]

Originally posted by LDUB

I've watched the video 10 times. Small back step with free foot AND disengaging with the pivot foot to the front of the rubber...I've still got a balk.

Looks very similar to a jump turn. I don't see a balk.

[jicecone]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TwoBits
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by LDUB
[B]

Originally posted by David Emerling


I've watched the video 10 times. Small back step with free foot AND disengaging with the pivot foot to the front of the rubber...I've still got a balk.

I have watched this at least 10 times and there is absolutely NOTHING, wrong with this move under OBR.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by orioles35
I also believe the pitcher has to break his hands apart as he's stepping off the rubber. I've had kids do half of this move correctly, stepping off with the correct foot. But they also bring both hands together over their heads, which is mimicing a windup. That's a balk.

The interpretation I've always used was for a right handed pitcher, step back with his RIGHT foot while breaking both hands apart, step back with the left foot (which effectively makes him a fielder), then he can make a throw to a base. Usually this is only effective when a runner is taking a ridiculous lead, or is being overly aggressive, thinking the pitcher hasn't remembered to pitch from the stretch.

The breaking of the hands is not required in the step off (OBR). A pitcher can step off the rubber and walk all over creation with his hands together. He must break his hands and let them go to his side before he re-engages the rubber!

[andrewm]

Well we didn't get a chance to run any pickoff plays from the windup this weekend. We were going to save them for braket play on Sunday, but the whole day got washed out.

However, on Saturday I did ask two umpires about the rule and neither one of them knew about it. One ump was calling a high school tournament at LSU's Alex Box Stadium and the other called our USSSA 11AA pool play games. They both said illegal in high school and college, which I knew. Neither one of them was sure about USSSA, which uses OBR. Both said they'd probably call a balk. Great, not what I wanted to hear. Guess I better have my rule book in hand with specific citations highlighted whenever we do try it.

We'll work on it in practice and save it for later. I just love to beat other teams by being more prepared.

[Tim C]

. . . if you entered the field where I was umpiring with a rule book in hand you would not have a chance to show me any reference.

Squeak, squeak, squeak.

[andrewm]

Originally posted by Tim C
. . . if you entered the field where I was umpiring with a rule book in hand you would not have a chance to show me any reference.

Squeak, squeak, squeak.

Yes, but since you already know the rule, we would never have the discussion.

So, in your opinion, what would be the proper way for me to handle the situation? (Assuming we run the play correctly and the ump calls a balk.)

Ask him for HIS balk reference?
Cite it for him (without the book)?
Accept the ruling and continue to play under protest (file official protest after the game)?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by andrewm

Yes, but since you already know the rule, we would never have the discussion.

So, in your opinion, what would be the proper way for me to handle the situation? (Assuming we run the play correctly and the ump calls a balk.)

Ask him for HIS balk reference?
Cite it for him (without the book)?
Accept the ruling and continue to play under protest (file official protest after the game)?

None of the above. Be proactive, without the rulebook.

[andrewm]

Originally posted by GarthB
None of the above. Be proactive, without the rulebook. [/B]

Speak to him on the side prior to the game? That's what we would like to do, if possible. Have a non-confrontational discussion to let him know what we plan on doing. Hash out the rules then.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by andrewm

Yes, but since you already know the rule, we would never have the discussion.

So, in your opinion, what would be the proper way for me to handle the situation? (Assuming we run the play correctly and the ump calls a balk.)

Ask him for HIS balk reference?
Cite it for him (without the book)?
Accept the ruling and continue to play under protest (file official protest after the game)?

Coaching hat: ON

When you suspect an umpire has misapplied a rule on what would normally be a judgment call - you should try to get the umpire to explain which rule he applied and how he applied it. You have to do this in a very non-confrontational way, or he may choose to clam up and give you the "talk to the hand" routine.

In my experience, if you act puzzled about what happened, most umpires will get diarrhea of the mouth and try to impress and educate you with how much they know, never suspecting for one moment that you may know the rule better than he does and that you already know how he has just misapplied it.

You have to get him to articulate his misconception regarding the rule. Once he does, continue to act perplexed and get him to repeat it. It is best if the other umpire is also involved.

Once he has clearly misapplied the rule - you got him! He can hardly change his story now. He's locked in.

There's no point in getting out rulebooks or making threats. In a very dispassionate manner, you state what you understand the rule to be, ask them to reconsider that they may have misapplied the rule, and once they stick with their call ... protest the game, walk away and have a seat. They now cannot proceed with the game without jumping through all the hoops required of an umpire in a protest situation. This will usually involve getting the tournament director involved.

While in the dugout, get out your rulebook, find the pertinent citation, and have it ready. Don't be concerned if they see you doing this. But keep the rulebook in the dugout the whole time!

Some umpires may ask to see the rule. If they do ... show it to them.

If the tournament director misapplies the rule ... THEN you whip out your rulebook and put it in HIS face ... not the umpire's.

This isn't about being a butthead or a rat - it's about being a COACH and protecting your team against gross misapplications that do great harm to your team. If you're not going to be an advocate for your team then who is?

WARNING: Only fight the battles that are worth fighting. There's no point proving an umpire wrong in a situation where his misapplication is of no substance. Before taking this route, always ask yourself, "Is this a hill worth climbing?" Frequently, the answer is "No."

Coaching hat: OFF

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Mar 21st, 2005 at 12:19 PM]