Force Play?

[greymule]

I'm surprised that after all these years, no definitive ruling has come down concerning the BR retreating toward home after touching 1B.

I admit I am not certain of the answer. It seems to me a good case can be made either way about whether the BR—let's put it this way—"reinstated his obligation to get to 1B before he or the base is tagged."

[DG]

The rules apparently do not say that getting a BR out by tagging 1b with ball in hand is a force, but the rules do say that we can tag the base with ball in hand to get the BR out. Now if we did the same thing at 2b on a batted ball with R1 it would be considered a force. The end result is the same. Therefore, I choose to consider getting BR out by tagging 1b with ball in hand a force. 9.01(c) allows me to do so. Now once I have made that decision, then 7.08(c) allows me to reinstate the force if BR retreats past 1b and goes back home for whatever reason, just like I would if R1 retreated toward 2b if forced to 2b by BR. FED and OBR agree on reinstating the force in this manner. "That's my ruling coach!"

[cbfoulds]

R3, 2 out; tie score, bottom of the final inning.
BR hits to the gap; R3 scores & BR reaches 1st safely.
Game over, Home team wins, right? BUT WAIT!!
BR "retreats" from 1st to join the celebration around the plate, defense throws to 1st baseman who holds the ball securely in hand or glove while in contact with the base. (Or tags BR, actually, either works)

If the play @ 1st is a force and "retreating" toward home "reinstates the force", then the run doesn't score - 3 outs, bring on the next half-inning, score's still tied. This could go on for a while.

The play at 1st is NOT a "force", although, yes indeedie, BR has an "obligation" to advance. If BR reaches and touches 1st before being put out, but (being a typical bonehead) retreats toward home for some reason HE (not the base) must be tagged to make the out; and if the tag should happen to be the 3rd out, any run which reached the plate before the time of the tag WILL SCORE.

There is, in fact, a reason for everything.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 01:06 AM]

[cbfoulds]

And DG:
9:01(c) does NOT allow you to make the ruling as you have outlined, as this is not a "point not covered". As pointed out, with citations, by other posters, the rules provide a definition of "force play" and the correct way to rule on the play at 1st. The fact that not every possible permutation is listed explicitly in the rule book does not make the matter one for 9:01(c).

[DG]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
R3, 2 out; tie score, bottom of the final inning.
BR hits to the gap; R3 scores & BR reaches 1st safely.
Game over, Home team wins, right? BUT WAIT!!
BR "retreats" from 1st to join the celebration around the plte, defense throws to 1st baseman who holds the ball securely in hand or glove while in contact with the base. (Or tags BR, actually, either works)

If the play @ 1st is a force and "retreating" toward home "reinstates the force", then the run doesn't score - 3 outs, bring on the next half-inning, score's still tied. This could go on for a while.

The play at 1st is NOT a "force", although, yes indeedie, BR has an "obligation" to advance. If BR reaches and touches 1st before being put out, but (being a typical bonehead) retreats toward home for some reason HE (not the base) must be tagged to make the out; and if the tag should happen to be the 3rd out, any run which reached the plate before the time of the tag WILL SCORE.

There is, in fact, a reason for everything.

Given your made up situation, my ruling stands. The bonehead retreated, reinstating the FORCE, and if defense plays on him the run does not score. Why am I supposed to protect the team with boneheads? Do you think I would call that in this situation? When then run crosses home and the batter makes it 1b, I don't see anything else happen, hypothetical or otherwise.

[cbfoulds]

Not "made up" DG, it happened TONIGHT [well, actually, I simplified a little] in a Legion game I was doing. The only thing "made up" is YOUR "rule(ing)". If you can get away with making 'em up as you go, good on ya. I prefer to win my protests.

[DG]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
And DG:
9:01(c) does NOT allow you to make the ruling as you have outlined, as this is not a "point not covered". As pointed out, with citations, by other posters, the rules provide a definition of "force play" and the correct way to rule on the play at 1st. The fact that not every possible permutation is listed explicitly in the rule book does not make the matter one for 9:01(c).

"Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules". The fact that every situation is not covered is exactly what 9.01(c) is for. A BR retreating toward home after touching 1b IS a point not covered. The fact that a BR is not officially considered "forced" by definition of force is not covered, but IMO a BR is forced at 1b. There may be 457 "errors" in the MLB rules, as some here have claimed, and if so this has got to be one of them.

[DG]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
Not "made up" DG, it happened TONIGHT [well, actually, I simplified a little] in a Legion game I was doing. The only thing "made up" is YOUR "rule(ing)". If you can get away with making 'em up as you go, good on ya. I prefer to win my protests.

"Coach, the runner from 3B touched home at least a second before the batter touched first. The batter was not forced and he can not retreat past 1b after the game is over. That's my judgement, appeal if you like." Do you really believe I would reverse a game winning hit because of a situation not covered in the rules?

I doubt the batter would be retreating toward home except to celebrate a game winning hit so this whole question is rather mute.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by DG
"Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules". The fact that every situation is not covered is exactly what 9.01(c) is for.

Yep I know, it is a great rule, but in this case, THE DEFINITION OF A FORCE OUT IS SPECIFICALLY COVERED IN THESE RULES.

Originally posted by DG
"Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules". The fact that every situation is not covered is exactly what 9.01(c) is for. A BR retreating toward home after touching 1b IS a point not covered. The fact that a BR is not officially considered "forced" by definition of force is not covered, but IMO a BR is forced at 1b. There may be 457 "errors" in the MLB rules, as some here have claimed, and if so this has got to be one of them.

So does this mean I can call a balk for F1 taking signs while off the ruber. As long as we are making up rules, you might as well call it a two base award. A penalty for this infraction is not specifically covered, so does that mean I can make up anything I want it to be? Hey that's what 9.01(c) is for.

[DG]

Originally posted by LDUB

Yep I know, it is a great rule, but in this case, THE DEFINITION OF A FORCE OUT IS SPECIFICALLY COVERED IN THESE RULES.

So does this mean I can call a balk for F1 taking signs while off the ruber. As long as we are making up rules, you might as well call it a two base award. A penalty for this infraction is not specifically covered, so does that mean I can make up anything I want it to be? Hey that's what 9.01(c) is for.

The ruling I made had some precedent (legal term lawyers like to use), in that a runner retreating from any other base would reinstate the force. Make up anything you like, but that is not what 9.01(c) is for.

A BR hits the ball in RF with runner on 3B. He advances to 1b while runner scores, and for some unknown reason retreats to home picks up his bat and gets in the batter's box. (If we are going to debate situations that will never happen we may as well go all the way with this).
So what is your call if defense throws the ball to 1B? You can't call him safe, and direct him to go to 1b, while he is standing in the batter's box, or can you?. I can't use 9.01(c) for this?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by DG
The fact that a BR is not officially considered "forced" by definition of force is not covered, but IMO a BR is forced at 1b. [/B]

Let me see if I get this:
BR going to 1st does not fit the definition of a "Force Play" printed in the rule book; BUT "in your opinion" BR is forced at 1b; SO (wait for it) that makes it a point not covered and therefore under 9:01(c) your opinion trumps the rule book?

As for if you would reverse a run, who knows? If you are making up rules, it is hard to predict what you might do. As for being moot, this thread contains a couple of reasons why BR might retreat - misunderstanding of fair/foul is one; game winning hit is not the only one, and it ain't a game winner if the run doesn't score.

THE POINT IS - no force at 1st base; if BR touches base safely and then for some (ANY) reason "retreats", HE, and not the bag, must be tagged to make the out. If BR is the 3rd out of the half-inning, being tagged after first reaching but then "retreating", any run(s) reaching the plate before the out COUNT. And this point IS specifically covered by the rules, you just have to read, understand, and use ALL of the rules applicable to the situation.

Just because there is not a SINGLE specific INDIVIDUAL rule for a given situation, does NOT mean the situation is not "specifically covered" in the printed rule book.

9:01(c) is a great rule [actually, 9:01(b) is my personal favorite], but it gets used WAY too often by folk what don't know the other rules, to justify deciding a case any damn way they like.

And BTW, am I the only one who noticed that your "run counts, appeal if you like ..." recital started with telling your hypothetical coach that THERE WAS NO FORCE @ 1B? Does this mean that, while you are making up rules, those rulings are different, depending upon the circumstance: force at 1B MOST of the time, but not if it would negate a game winning run? How, exactly, do you figure THAT is good judgment (or use of 9:01(c))?

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by DG

The ruling I made had some precedent (legal term lawyers like to use), in that a runner retreating from any other base would reinstate the force. Make up anything you like, but that is not what 9.01(c) is for.

A BR hits the ball in RF with runner on 3B. He advances to 1b while runner scores, and for some unknown reason retreats to home picks up his bat and gets in the batter's box. (If we are going to debate situations that will never happen we may as well go all the way with this).
So what is your call if defense throws the ball to 1B? You can't call him safe, and direct him to go to 1b, while he is standing in the batter's box, or can you?. I can't use 9.01(c) for this?

Nope, sorry, you can't. The point IS "covered".

I am a lawyer, and your "precedent" has no precedential value, being contradicted by the written "statute".

So, again, the call is:
No force (BR has touched 1stB)
Defense must tag BR, not base, to get the out.
DO NOT "call him safe"; DO NOT "direct him to ... 1B"; DO NOT call him out until he is tagged (off 1st base, preferably); and BTW, DO score R3, even if BR getting tagged makes 3 outs.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 02:50 AM]

[Dave Reed]

Originally posted by cbfoulds
R3, 2 out; tie score, bottom of the final inning.
BR hits to the gap; R3 scores & BR reaches 1st safely.
Game over, Home team wins, right? BUT WAIT!!
BR "retreats" from 1st to join the celebration around the plate, defense throws to 1st baseman who holds the ball securely in hand or glove while in contact with the base. (Or tags BR, actually, either works)

If the play @ 1st is a force and "retreating" toward home "reinstates the force", then the run doesn't score - 3 outs, bring on the next half-inning, score's still tied. This could go on for a while.

The play at 1st is NOT a "force", although, yes indeedie, BR has an "obligation" to advance. If BR reaches and touches 1st before being put out, but (being a typical bonehead) retreats toward home for some reason HE (not the base) must be tagged to make the out; and if the tag should happen to be the 3rd out, any run which reached the plate before the time of the tag WILL SCORE.

There is, in fact, a reason for everything.

[Edited by cbfoulds on Jul 23rd, 2004 at 01:06 AM]

I don't think it matters whether you consider the play at first a force or not-- in this game winning situation the run scores when R3 has touched home and B/R has reached first base safely. All the requirements of 4.09 are fufilled: there's no missed bases, B/R was not put out before touching first base, and there is no force out-- yet-- and there isn't going to be a force out because the game is over immediately, according to 4.11 (c).

Consider if your situation had R1,R3 instead of just R3. Now R3 touches home, R1 reaches 2nd base safely, B/R reaches first, and then R1 goes toward first to congratulate B/R for his game winning hit. Defense throws to 2nd. Is he out and the run nullified because of a reinstated force play? I say no; the game is already over.

The plot thickens if there is no potential to end the game. Assume R3, R1, and B/R singles. R3 touches home, R1 touches and stands on 2nd base, and mistakenly believes that time has been called. He realizes that he is still wearing some batting armor, and moves toward his 1st base coach while removing it. Is the force reinstated? If put out, is the run nullified? Can he be put out by tagging 2nd base? I argue (with only moderate conviction) two points: 1. He isn't "retreating", he is just confused, and so the force is not reinstated. 2. If the umpire judges that he is retreating, this is effectively a new play following the play that led to R3 reaching home, so the run scores.

Dave

[Tim C]

DG has never let the rules, or their correct interpretation, get in his way when posting on this board.

I have learned to just ignore him.

Tee

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule
I'm surprised that after all these years, no definitive ruling has come down concerning the BR retreating toward home after touching 1B.

When was the last time you saw it become an issue in MLB (or even MiLB)?

Approximately never would be my guess.

That's why there's been no "definitive ruling".

There's no valid reason for a BR to return to home *during a play*. There is a valid reason for R1 to return to first during a play.

IF R1 returns in the mistaken belief that he is "supposed to" (that is, a mistaken belief that the return is proper baserunning), then the rules provide for that -- the force is reinstated.

BR cannot claim that the return is in some mistaken belief that the return is proper baserunning. So, the "force" is not reinstated.

Get an out for abandonment, or making a travesty of the game, or running out of the baseline (my take: until BR touches first, there's a reason to return home --to avoid the tag. So, the "baseline" includes back to home. After BR touches first, there's no reason to return, so the "baseline" doesn't extend back towards home). But, don't get an out for a "force play."