Force Play?

Lapopez · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 16, 2004, 03:55pm

I originally posted this over 5 yrs ago on another forum. I was wondering what is the current thinking/interpretation.

Play (OBR):

R1 and R3. 1 out. Batter singles. R3 scores. R1 goes to third but misses second base. The batter is thrown out attempting to go to second. An appeal is made at second and R1, who is now on third, is called out.
Does the run count?

Paul

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 16, 2004, 04:12pm

My opinion:

When the batter was out, the force was removed. It is now just a timing play so the run scores.

Gee · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 01:03pm

The real question should be: Was the force removed BEFORE R1 missed second base. G.

teacherspit · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 02:55pm

I agree it is a timing play when the force was removed. Either way unless it was a forced double play R3 would score.

Lapopez · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 05:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Ives
My opinion:

When the batter was out, the force was removed. It is now just a timing play so the run scores.

I remember from years back that there was a camp that held to the interpretation that since there was a force at the time of the missed base, it could not be removed subsequently by the out on BR. I believe there was some official ruling on this. Does anybody have anything official?

Paul

Gee · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 06:42pm

"SNIP"
"I remember from years back that there was a camp that held to the interpretation that since there was a force at the time of the missed base, it could not be removed subsequently by the out on BR. I believe there was some official ruling on this. Does anybody have anything official?"
------------------------------------------
That is what I was alluding to in my previous post. In the play we are discussing it is pretty obvious that R1 had passed second base and probably on third when the batter runner was retired at second.

That be the case, the B/R was tagged out for an off base out therefore it did not lift the force play that was in effect when R1 missed second and a proper appeal would reestablish the force and nullify the run.

The only way the force play could be lifted on R1 would be if the B/R was "FORCED" out at first, which of course he wasn't. Have to watch those runners. G.

whatgameyouwatchinblue · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 06:44pm

doesnt a new play cancel out the appeal opp.???

Gee · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 07:02pm

"SNIP"

"Doesnt a new play cancel out the appeal opp.???"
----------------------------------------------

No because it was continuous action. G.

Lapopez · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gee

That is what I was alluding to in my previous post. In the play we are discussing it is pretty obvious that R1 had passed second base and probably on third when the batter runner was retired at second.

That be the case, the B/R was tagged out for an off base out therefore it did not lift the force play that was in effect when R1 missed second and a proper appeal would reestablish the force and nullify the run.

The only way the force play could be lifted on R1 would be if the B/R was "FORCED" out at first, which of course he wasn't. Have to watch those runners. G.

I don't mean to go off on a tangent but I think a scenario could be conjured up where R1 and the B/R are between first and second at the same time and the B/R is tagged out for an "off base out." I think here the force play on R1 would be lifted.

Paul

bob jenkins · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 17, 2004, 08:51pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Lapopez
I don't mean to go off on a tangent but I think a scenario could be conjured up where R1 and the B/R are between first and second at the same time and the B/R is tagged out for an "off base out." I think here the force play on R1 would be lifted.

Paul

Yes, the force would be lifted, but it's not relevant here because R1 hadn't missed the base (yet).

LDUB · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 18, 2004, 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Lapopez
I don't mean to go off on a tangent but I think a scenario could be conjured up where R1 and the B/R are between first and second at the same time and the B/R is tagged out for an "off base out." I think here the force play on R1 would be lifted.

Paul

A simmilar situation comes up all the time. R1 and ground ball to F3, who steps on first, BR is out, and R1 is no longer forced to advance. F3 throws to F6 who tags R1 out at second.

Atl Blue · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 18, 2004, 11:13pm

From J/R:

If a consecutive runner has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner, and he is forced at the moment he misses his advance base, an appeal of that base is ALWAYS a force out. EG: bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. First the defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal of the batter-runner does not negate the fact that R1 was forced when he missed the base. R1's appeal out (third out) is also a force out; R2 and R3's runs are negated.

According to J/R, if it was a force when it was missed, it's a force when it is appealed.

Lapopez · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 19, 2004, 07:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by Atl Blue
From J/R:

If a consecutive runner has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner, and he is forced at the moment he misses his advance base, an appeal of that base is ALWAYS a force out. EG: bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. First the defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal of the batter-runner does not negate the fact that R1 was forced when he missed the base. R1's appeal out (third out) is also a force out; R2 and R3's runs are negated.

According to J/R, if it was a force when it was missed, it's a force when it is appealed.

This makes more sense to me than the "off base" vs. "force" on the batter runner lingo.

Gee · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 19, 2004, 12:01pm

It does to me too.

I can see the difference. As in the reverse double play, the B/R is "forced out" which removes the force on R1 at second because the out was recorded at first BEFORE R1 arrived at second.

In the play we are talking about, even if the B/R was forced out at first it wouldn't matter providing the MISS took place BEFORE the out was made. Got it.

[Edited by Gee on Jul 19th, 2004 at 02:10 PM]

jicecone · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 19, 2004, 02:10pm

"R1 and R3. 1 out. Batter singles. R3 scores. R1 goes to third but misses second base. The batter is thrown out attempting to go to second. An appeal is made at second and R1, who is now on third, is called out.
Does the run count?"

So if I am following along correctly here, the third out is the appeal at second which is still a force, and the run does not score.