Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Reed
It is commonly believed that under OBR a B/R is not "forced" at first, and one can plausibly infer this because rule 4.09 (a) and (b) make a clear distinction between force outs and the out made by B/R at 1st base. In this thread, Atl Blue quotes JEA referring to the B/R being "forced out." As it happens, OBR also makes such a reference. See Definitions, Double Play (b):
"A reverse force double play is one in which the first out is a force play and the second out is made on a runner for whom the force is removed by reason of the first out. Examples of reverse force plays: runner on first, one out; batter grounds to first baseman, who steps on first base (one out) and throws to second baseman or shortstop for the second out (a tag play). Another example..."[snip]
So this OBR example of a reverse force double play-- which requires the first out to be a "force play"-- has the first out being made by B/R before he reaches 1st base. If Jim Evans was being "sloppy", so were the writers of the OBR.
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Yes the rule book does talk about reverse force plays, but as you say, they are being sloppy. Everyone knows what they mean so there is no reason to waste space and write "if the BR is put out before reaching 1st base."
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Reed
My own opinion is that the definition can be read to include the B/R at first base provided that we believe the batter can "occupy" home base. The term "occupy" isn't defined in OBR, and I choose to believe that the batter does occupy home base while he is at bat. And so it is "technically correct" to refer to a force play on B/R at first.
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Read rule 7.08 (e) ...However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;
Now let's say the play at first is a force. Now if the BR retreats back past first, the force would be reinstated. Do you want to change the play at first to a force and therefore making the previous statement true?
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Reed
(You've got to admit it would make discussions with coaches, players, and spectators easier if it didn't seem necessary to say " well, technically it isn't a force at first, but...")
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I'm just being curious here, but how often do you discuss the play on the BR at first base not being a force with coaches, players, and spectators?