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DG:
You are correct, on the situation I posted, (three runners on 3B), two are out (I think we all agree on that). You are correct, the order of the tags DOES matter to determine WHICH two are out. THAT is the concept to which Windy refuses to agree.
alkalsey:
Bases loaded, R3 doesn't move on the hit. R1 R2 both advance a base. There are now two runners on third and one on second. If R1 stepped off second and were tagged, would R2 be in jeopardy at third? No.
Yes, he would! A trail runner was out, that removes the force on everyone. THAT is the point of this exercise.
Bases loaded ball hit to the outfield. The batter decides not to stop at first but heads to second, do the other runners have to advance a base? No.
They have to advance at least one. If not, where do they go? They do not have to advance past their "forced to" base, but they have to advance at least one base. That is what a force is all about.
R1, R2. R2 makes it to third, but R1 was tagged out after rounding second, could R2 legally go back to second? No.
YES! He absolutely can! The force has been removed, he can return to 2B!
So why do all of the above common-sense concepts suddenly go out the window just because you have three people occupying a base at third?
The above concepts went out the window LONG before we had three guys standing on third. Then went out when the concept of a force was misunderstood.
You may disagree with Windy's statement that the person who screws up is out, but in baseball, that's most often the case.
In MOST cases, it IS right, I agree with that. My point to this entire exercise is that it is not ALWAYS right, and he is an exception.
The only time when it's not is when doing that would give an advantage to the offense. (Runner passing another, batter interference at home, etc.).
Those are times, yes, but those are not the ONLY times.
Somebody else help out here. Am I nuts?
Well, I not going to answer that one, but I will say you have misunderstood the FORCE rule.
Read 7.08e. Read 2.00, Force. A force is removed against a runner when he reaches his advance base when forced. However, that does NOT remove the force that existed against any other runners.
EXAMPLE: Bases loaded, line drive toward F7, may or may not be caught. R1 thinks no, and takes off, R2 goes half way, R3 holds at 3B. Ball is not caught. R1 reaches 2B. The force is now removed on R1, but it remains for R2 and R3. They are still forced to their next bases.
Now, same situation, except F7 comes up throwing to 2B. R1 has rounded 2B, and a quick thinking F6 tags R1. He is out. R2 and R3 are NO LONGER forced. They must be tagged to be out.
Now, you want to get into the really interesting stuff? A force can be removed and reinstated against the same runner on the same play!
EXAMPLE: R1, fly ball to F9, R1 off on the pitch, ball is dropped by F9. R1 slides into 2B, removing the force. But he does not realize F9 has dropped the ball, so he returns to 1B thinking he has to tag up. Even though he reached 2B, removing the force, by retreating to 1B, he has REINSTATED the force on himself. If the defense throws the ball to 2B, he's out.
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