I don't believe my league.....

[akalsey]

Always listening to the customer can be dangerous in business. I read once that one of the top customer requests for Porsche was more trunk space. So if Porsche listened to the customer they'd make station wagons.

[BBall_Junkie]

Apparently Porche did listen cuz they are producing an SUV which has plenty of trunk space. Dumbest thing I have ever seen. Either you want a sports car or an SUV... they are not interchangeable. That is kinda like having an umpire named Peter Rutledge. HA

[wobster]

Originally posted by Gee
From what you now say about ejecting the fan, I can better understand your actions. You simply didn't know you couldn't do that.

Your President should have known that and handled the situation, after the fact, a tad more graciously, especially where you are the Vice President.

He could have said: Hey Wobby, I heard about that sitch yesterday when you threw out that fan. I heard he was a real low life and deserved to be thrown out.

I know it is not in the rules but WE are not allowed to eject fans unless they are on the field so WE have to be carefull.

Next time it happens Wobby, go to the home team manager and tell him if this fan is not brought under control this game will be forfeited to the other team. That should take care of the problem. Good job, see ya Wob.

You are correct, I simply didn't know I couldn't do it.

I meant to make that clear in the first post, but I didn't. Oops.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by JRutledge

No, your critics just think it is the dumbest thing they have ever heard. For one if you understand anything about business, it is not our job to answer any questions and to have them walk away happy. That is not our job. Our job is to run the game. Call the game by the rules. Use common sense. And if we can not interfere in the game. That is the reason the "give the customer what he wants" does not apply to umpiring or any officiating for that matter.

Peace

It is generally a waste of time to argue with Rut so I am replying for the rest of you. The first problem in replying to Rut is interpreting his mangled grammar. Tell me, what does this sentence mean:

Rut wrote "And if we can not interfere in the game." He wrote it as a complete sentence. It makes no sense at all. What's new?

Unfortunately, we must take into account the customer's wishes or he will go somewhere else. My association has driven the other associations in our area out of business. In spite of the fact that we charge MORE than anyone else, the customer chooses us because we take care of the customer. It does you no good to be the best umpire in the world if no one will hire you.

It is a truism of business everywhere. The man who pays the bills makes the rules. Unless you want to live in a communist country, you will have to get use to it. Only sports officials are arrogant enough to believe that marketplace rules don't apply to them. Recognizing this fact, we have put our competition out of business and made more money for ourselves in the process.

Thank God our competition thinks like Rut.

Peter

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness


It is generally a waste of time to argue with Rut so I am replying for the rest of you. The first problem in replying to Rut is interpreting his mangled grammar. Tell me, what does this sentence mean:

Then why are you responding using my words? If you were not responding to me, then you would not use my words at all to defend your silly argument.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Unfortunately, we must take into account the customer's wishes or he will go somewhere else. My association has driven the other associations in our area out of business. In spite of the fact that we charge MORE than anyone else, the customer chooses us because we take care of the customer. It does you no good to be the best umpire in the world if no one will hire you.

Who cares what one association does over another. The issue is whether it is in the best interest of the game and the umpires on a game to treat the coaches like customers. Last time I checked, that is not my job to make everyone happy.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
It is a truism of business everywhere. The man who pays the bills makes the rules. Unless you want to live in a communist country, you will have to get use to it. Only sports officials are arrogant enough to believe that marketplace rules don't apply to them. Recognizing this fact, we have put our competition out of business and made more money for ourselves in the process.

I see, this is about your ability to compete with other associations. So all this crap is an attempt to maintain some silly place with a conference or school. I agree that they have some say in what goes on, but there are standards that should be maintained. If the people that paid the bills to carry a gun around on the field, does not mean I think that is a good idea because the customer says so.

Originally posted by His High Holiness
Thank God our competition thinks like Rut.

I thank Jesus that most people do not think like you. It does not surprise me that folks like yourself are more concerned with maintaining something than holding some professional standards. There is nothing wrong with letting the coaches decide some things about games they participate, but I would think that your state has some standards that need to be upheld. I know we would have problems if we allowed coaches to make up rules as the go along, just because they wanted to. But then again, I am not you.

Peace

[GarthB]

Originally posted by His High Holiness

GarthB;

My critics have often deliberately misinterpreted my advice of "Give the customer what he wants!" To wit:

I have never advocated letting the coaches or players misbehave. Just because they want to scream at the umpire is no reason to let them.

Here is what I do mean by giving the customer what he wants:

If BOTH coaches show up at the plate conference and want to play by certain rules, as long as it does not compromise safety, I am going along with their desires. I simply am not going to enforce rules that neither of them want enforced unless it has to do with safety. Over the years, here are some examples:

1. Don't call balks. Fine, I can live with that. Or give warnings only. (I have not had to do this in 10 years since I no longer work at these levels.)

2. We want to play only five innings but we'll give you a full fee. The Virginia High School League (VHSL) has forbidden this practice. They hate it. However, if the coaches show up at the plate conference and my assignor has approved it, they are going to get what they want. When the VHSL pays my fee is when I'll start listening to the VHSL.

3. All manner of modifications to FED rules (excluding safety). Usually these revolve around balks, visits, the DH, and appeals.

4. Free substitutions.

5. Imposing slaughter rules and time limits (as long as I am the beneficiary in terms of time.)

My critics hate my attitude towards letting the coaches write the rules. Therefore, they deliberately lie and imply that I let the coaches compromise safety or compromise behavior. That does not happen where I umpire. I have just such an example that I am working on for the paid part of this site. Stay tuned.

I did not understand the 2nd paragraph of your post with regards to the BU.

To put your third paragraph in context, Wobster told us that he had never thrown someone out of a game. I told him that he needed to learn this skill pronto. He made a mistake in his choice of target. Big deal, who cares. He is learning. Anyway, he had success because everyone shut up. He learned something there about the power of ejection. That's a success story in umpiring education.

Finally, from what he describes, no one is policing anything in the league that he works. When 15 year old 1st base coaches are yelling at umpires, something is wrong with the league administration. It's time to leave.

Peter

Peter:

You read WAY too much into post. I was referring to his league not wanting him to toss spectators. That's all.



[Edited by GarthB on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 06:43 PM]

[umpduck11]

I guess I am somewhat lucky.The park in which I call is very suportive of our crews.
Last year,during a post-season all-star tournament,I was
involved in a situation where the father of a player from our park decided to start screaming at my partner and myself.I mean SCREAMING,not just raising his voice.
I approached the home team manager,and asked him to see if
he could calm his parent down.His attempts failed,at which point I calmly told the coach that either the gentlman vacated the area immediately,or I would call the game a forfeit.After a few more profanities,the man removed himself from the area,and moved to the roadside behind centerfield.
I was told by our Chief Umpire,and two Board members that I had handled the situation well,and acheived the desired result.Also,our park has no problem calling our local police
department to remove any unruly fans,or coaches.

P.S.
I had the same home team the next day,and the coach assured me I would have no problems out of this parent.It seems that after the game in which he was removed,his wife blasted him in front of the team and all their parents about his "rediculous behavior",and told him he would not ever embarass her that way again!!

[jumpmaster]

wobster, you have learned a valuable lesson from this experience. Good - move on. FWIW - I learned this lesson in almost the exact same way as you.

Those that castigate HHH for his attitude about calling what the coaches want, let me offer this...I am a young official who's dream is to call a NCAA Div 1 conference ball game. I am being evaluated for movement into the upper levels of our association, including AAA American Legion. If all goes well I should have a crack at Ju-Co ball within the next year. I have been told by our NCAA, NAIA, and Ju-Co umpires "your mechanics and rules knowledge are great. You need to work on your philosophy and understanding the game." This comment is ALWAYS followed by, "you have to learn to call what the coaches want." For instance, allow the neighborhood tag at second (a la Papa C) and the jump turn pick-off move, call FED rules at a legion game - but NEVER, EVER compromise safety.

[WindyCityBlue]

Jumpmaster,
I can assure you that you do not call what the coaches want at the major college conference level (D1). We do not pick which rules we will enforce, since many of us are evaluated at most every game. My crew chief has worked two Super Regionals and drives home the need to enforce everything by the book.

If you want to move up, there are things you can do...

1) Hustle - including getting back to your position between
innnings. This is the number one thing that get beefed.

2) Look professional - get the best gear you can afford and
maintain it. You'll be safer, too.

3) Learn from your mistakes and don't make them again.

4) Know the rules differences between NCAA and FED or OBR.
Nothing PO's a coach more than calling the wrong rule
(well, maybe not hustling).

5) Recognize that you need to adjust your game to the level
of play. They are better - faster, trickier, stronger.
You need to create better angles and see more.

6) Never take a coach for granted. They usually got their
jobs by knowing somenthing or someone. You need coaches
on your side for recommendations, but if you are a brown
nose you'll likely only have one or two in your corner
because the others have found out and are PO'd.

7) Work as many games as you can at that level. I know that it is a Catch 22, but you won't get better games until you've proven yourself. I was working crappy JUCO ball when I got out of the Minors. A MAJOR coach was scouting a kid and approached me after the game. He asked me if I was interested in working his non-conference games and I agreed, even though I knew they would be crap. It paid off - a couple more coaches took notice and now I get conference schedules and a whole lot of travelling.

Be fair - enforce all of the rules - but realize that these guys don't live in a rule book, like many of us. They don't like being shown up and hate looking bad. Huh, that sounds a lot like us.

[DG]

Ditch this league and go fishing. It ain't worth the hassle.

[Edited by DG on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 10:57 PM]

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jumpmaster,
I can assure you that you do not call what the coaches want at the major college conference level (D1). We do not pick which rules we will enforce, since many of us are evaluated at most every game. My crew chief has worked two Super Regionals and drives home the need to enforce everything by the book.

Windy City Blue is exactly correct for NCAA D1 baseball. In the last 5 years or so, the NCAA has taken its cue from MLB and seized control of umpiring. Just like MLB is grading umpires on the strike zone and other things, NCAA is grading the umpires on compliance with the rules. Coaches and ADs no longer have much input.

At the lower levels, the coaches and ADs rule the roost, or at least have a lot more influence. At the D1 level, a conference office hires the entire conference umpire staff. At lower levels (DII down to high school), individual schools and school districts hire the umpires. Therefore, at the lower levels, the coaches and ADs have a lot more say. He who writes the checks, writes the rules.

This effect increases as one gets into summer leagues. The League Administrators are often connected to the teams in some way. It does not pay to pi$$ off the coaches when the issue has nothing to do with safety or decorum. The lower the level, the more likely it is that the coach is connected to the League President. That is why LL may be the toughest level to politically navigate.

Peter

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
At the lower levels, the coaches and ADs rule the roost, or at least have a lot more influence. At the D1 level, a conference office hires the entire conference umpire staff. At lower levels (DII down to high school), individual schools and school districts hire the umpires. Therefore, at the lower levels, the coaches and ADs have a lot more say. He who writes the checks, writes the rules.

Maybe in your little small area that is true, but not true in my area or a lot of other places. The schools pay the umpires, but they do not decide who works the games or not. They might have imput if they like a guy, but I know many assignment chairmen that make sure those reasons are legitimate, not just *****ing because they lost a game. So that philosophy might be all the rage in your neck of the woods, but does not apply at all where I live

Peace

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Maybe in your little small area that is true, but not true in my area or a lot of other places. The schools pay the umpires, but they do not decide who works the games or not. They might have imput if they like a guy, but I know many assignment chairmen that make sure those reasons are legitimate, not just *****ing because they lost a game. So that philosophy might be all the rage in your neck of the woods, but does not apply at all where I live

Peace

So the schools pay the umpires but have little influence over who works the games. HMMMM.

I think that it's great that you have been able to repeal the law of the marketplace. Perhaps you should share your ideas with former communists who would like to reestablish command economies. I'll bet that they would pay you big bucks to tell them how to repeal the laws of the marketplace. They have been trying for 80 years and it ended in catastrophe. But the great Rut can be their salvation, yet.

You are such a genius, Rut. Your talents are wasted in the Chicago area. You are ready for the World stage.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by His High Holiness


So the schools pay the umpires but have little influence over who works the games. HMMMM.

I think that it's great that you have been able to repeal the law of the marketplace. Perhaps you should share your ideas with former communists who would like to reestablish command economies. I'll bet that they would pay you big bucks to tell them how to repeal the laws of the marketplace. They have been trying for 80 years and it ended in catastrophe. But the great Rut can be their salvation, yet.

You are such a genius, Rut. Your talents are wasted in the Chicago area. You are ready for the World stage.

This is why I and many do not respect you. You do not know how to see things at all thru other people's experiences. Just because something is one way in your little small area, does not mean the rest of the world is dealing with the same issues.

Yes, the schools write the checks for the umpires, it is their event. They write the checks for the playoffs, but have absolutely no say whatsoever about any of the assignments the IHSA hands out. A Regional or Sectional host cannot tell the playoff assignor, "I do not like this guy, he cannot work this playoff game." During the regular season the schools pay, but they do not assign the games or decide who goes where in many cases. There are parts of the state that have assignment given by schools, but what I am talking about does not apply to them. I am being very specific to the Chicago area or those schools that have an assignor hired by the conference. As a matter of fact, I have known assignors to send an umpire right back to schools where the coach complained about that very umpire. Now, will some assignors cave to what the coaches and schools want? Of course they can but do they actually do that? That is not an automatic or a given just because a school has a problem with a particular umpire. And it really does not happen on that level in baseball, mainly because there are not the numbers to be picky about who goes where. Maybe in some other sports where they really have a lot of guys they can move around without disrupting coverage of games, but not in baseball. If a school bans too many umpires, they will not have anyone at all that is capable to work. Especially at the varsity levels. I even know a basketball assignor that has said to his conference, "If you do not like the officials I send, then hire someone else. But do not tell me that any coach knows officiating better than me." Guess what Peter, he is still working at that conference. Go figure.

Peter, you just show how "ignit" you really are. Because you think that everyone is in jeapordy of losing something because the school complains or has a problem. If we use your logic, then we might as well cave into the schools complaits about calls that deal with safety, because they do not agree with your call. It is not like coaches are very knowledgable about the rules and how they should be applied. But since they are the customer, let us just listen to them instead of what the rulebook says or the intepreters want a situation to be handled. Well maybe for a guy that has no "backbone" and allows the schools to dictate everything, that might be a legitimite problem. But here, that is not an issue where I am. I guess we all have our own crosses to bear.

Peace

[David B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by His High Holiness

Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
Jumpmaster,
I can assure you that you do not call what the coaches want at the major college conference level (D1). We do not pick which rules we will enforce, since many of us are evaluated at most every game. My crew chief has worked two Super Regionals and drives home the need to enforce everything by the book.

Summer league is horrible about all of this kind of stuff.

High School at least in the south is completely under the guidance of the State HSAA.

They make all determination about rules that might be changed, modified etc., and they also are in charge of all testing and assignments.

In our local association, we have an assignor who is directly responsible to the state office.

He has complete control over who umpires which game. Each coach gets a sctratch list of three umpires and they TRY to go with it.

Playoffs are completely assigned by the local assignor, but the state makes the determination over which local association gets to do the games.


Summer leagues, who knows. Even in all of the select ball which is getting bigger and bigger, every time I go to a tournament, they have their own little rules they want to go by.

Hey, its their tournament, I'll call it however they want.

Thanks
David