Line in the sand

[NSump]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

It is not our job to promote our definition of civility. [/B]

Carl:

You must be watching the Yankees too much lately, you're in a slump. That's 0 for 2 tonight.

I ABSOLUTELY is our job to "promote" our definition of civility. We do it every night and that is what is causing the problem. We each have our own definition of what should happen. Hell, you gave no less than 3 choices.

The problem occurs when you choose #3, keep him in the game and the next night I boot himout and he whines that, "Hey Carl didn't boot me out. At least he knew what he was doing. F***ing rookies!"

Gee Carl, your solution helped me a lot the next night. Not only did it create an argument, I have also been pegged as a dolt becasue the "Big Dog" did something different.

As leaders in an association, we need to lead by example. Why not stop giving the young guys multiple choices and give them a tool that will work and stop it from happening over and over.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by NSump

And Carl, you are wrong. To teach a NEW UMPIRE to not eject is just plain stupid.

NEW umpires don't have the experience to learn complex game management tools that you are teaching. Just keep ejecting and they will stop drawing the line. After time, they will learn game management and these incidents will stop.

I bet you a "dollar to a penny" that after a month nobody in McAllen would draw a line on me. [/B]

With that attitude you wouldn't last a week.

I teach that the game is controlled through the coach, not through kids.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump


If you have officiated at all, this statement is just pure rubbish. Regardless of how you deal with this, you will get complaints.

I did not say I have never gotten complaints about absolutely anything. I said I have never gotten complaints about dealing with a player the way I choose to. The only folks that are trying to tell me I was wrong, are folks that have never seen me umpire a single game.

So if a coach makes a comment about a single pitch (which they do), do you throw them out of the game on the spot, not discussion or warning ever? Because if I am listening to your comment correctly, that is the way all "arguing or debating of balls and strikes" should be handled? I have never read anyone saying they have a "zero tolerance" for that. But then when a kid does one thing, the "only option" is to eject that kid, no words, no comments, just eject?

You have a right to that opinion, I just do not agree with it. But then again, I have never had anyone tell me I was wrong when I did not eject a kid for this and "sent a message" my way. But I guess I should forget all those comments and take your word.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge

So drawing a line means that they will not swing at you first? So if you allow them to draw a line in the sand then that means they will never curse you out because you made a call they did not like?

Interesting take. I will have to remember that next time.

Peace [/B]

Let me go S L O W L Y so you understand.

Players and coaches are like kids. They will test you to see how far they can go.

If you let them draw the line, what will they do next? If you handle the "little" incidents, the big ones usually don't happen.

[NSump]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

With that attitude you wouldn't last a week.

I teach that the game is controlled through the coach, not through kids. [/B]

Well Carl, it has served me well enough to last 23 years here in Nova Scotia. Heck, even got me to 10 Nationals. Golly, you were even going to invite me to work the NBC regionals in Texas.

In fact, my whole philosophy is outlined in my five part series, The Thumb http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2440

Have a lovely evening.

Blaine Gallant, AKA NSump

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense. The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible.

I may not commit myself to saying this is an automatic ejection everytime - I myself may choose some other way to teach a little sportsmanship. BUT I WOULDN'T OBJECT OF ANY UMPIRE THAT FEELS IMMEDIATE EJECTION IS THE APPROPRIATE PENALTY. Ejection is absolutely appropriate.

Depending upon what my mood is and how the game is going, who the coach is, etc. I may choose some other way to correct this unacceptable behavior. I feel each situation warrants its own response.

This action will not go unnoticed nor unpunished. Expanding the zone... probably not - that's my integrity. I don't know that the pitcher is going to throw out there now. I do think that hoping that the pitcher will throw outside and that I will call them strikes is the wrong approach - that action leaves the possibility that the batter will go unpunished - next pitch might be down the tube for a homerun.

To reinforce Mark, it is sad that officials are put into a position where they need to teach sportsmanship. That is the coach's job... and yes historically (there are exceptions, and Bobby Knight isn't one of them) they seem to be doing a poorer and poorer job. Our society is becoming very tolerant of disrespect. It is sad, sad, sad. Kids today truthfully do have No Fear. Punishment from parents and coaches is virtually nonexistent; our legal system has continuously placed blame and punishment on the wrong parties.

Back to the topic at hand...

How obvious was his scratch in the dirt? I might tell the batter to go to his coach. Tell your coach what you just did. And then tell him I want a substitute for you. Tell the substitute what you did too. You've got 20 seconds hurry up. Same result but not as emotional and not as showboat/retaliatory. My response should be similar to the tone of the original act.

Not to change the subject but most ejections I've seen or enforced myself were following an action where a player was called out. In this situation, is the ejection also an out or do you just get a new batter to assume the existing count?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump


Let me go S L O W L Y so you understand.

Players and coaches are like kids. They will test you to see how far they can go.

If you let them draw the line, what will they do next? If you handle the "little" incidents, the big ones usually don't happen.

Thank you very much on telling me what to do. I will remember that in my next basketball game or football game as well. Because I find it interesting that baseball umpires tend to be the most inflexible of all the sports I do. You guys come up with customs and rituals like you are in a cult. And get upset when folks handle things differently than you.

I never said not to handle the situation, I just feel that "ejection" is not the only way to handle it. And if it is, then you do what you have to do. But I think there are other ways to "handle" the situation. Ejection for me is a last resort and saved for the most egregious offenses.

So you eject any coach, not matter what when they ask you about a pitch? No matter what tone they come to you? Not matter what words they use? Why is that different than drawing a line in the sand?

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
[B
Not to change the subject but most ejections I've seen or enforced myself were following an action where a player was called out. In this situation, is the ejection also an out or do you just get a new batter to assume the existing count? [/B]

No, middle of the count, lets make it 2-1. New batter, same count.

Hey I've been around a lot of years. I have tried your method, the FYC and just plain giving the batter sh!t. In the long run, the ejection works the best.

I did a series a few years back on the paid portion of the site about this same scenario. I asked umpires, players and coaches about the same situation and how to handle it. The only ones who ALL said it was an automatic ejction? The PLAYERS.

The umpiers said it depended on the situaion (similar to here). The coach said dump a rookie but cut the veteran some slack and just tear a strip off of him. But the PLAYERS said dump him. Actually, one pitcher said, FYC him the next pitch, then dump him - but pitchers always want it all!!

Blaine

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump
I did a series a few years back on the paid portion of the site about this same scenario. I asked umpires, players and coaches about the same situation and how to handle it. The only ones who ALL said it was an automatic ejction? The PLAYERS.

I will remember to poll the players the next time I call a pitch.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I will remember that in my next basketball game or football game as well. Because I find it interesting that baseball umpires tend to be the most inflexible of all the sports I do. You guys come up with customs and rituals like you are in a cult. And get upset when folks handle things differently than you.


So you eject any coach, not matter what when they ask you about a pitch? No matter what tone they come to you? Not matter what words they use? Why is that different than drawing a line in the sand?

Peace [/B]

First, I have worked basketball and hockey and softball, so I too have worked many sports.

The DIFFERENCE is that in basketball you have a technical foul, in hockey an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, soccer has the yellow card. You have many different tools to use.

Also, coaches are not ALLOWED on the field/ice.

But, these sports have felonies too. A coach throws a water bottle on the ice - done. A coach throws a basketball on the court - done.

As far as the coach barking from the dugout, I deal with it. The difference is that often what is said is not heard by many in the stands. If the remark is loud and he is cursing, he may have a shower coming quickly.

So, generally speaking, I deal with verbal remarks differently than I do visual ones. When someone is showing everyone what an a** I am, he is done. If someone is yelling loud enough for everyone to hear, he is done. If he is yelling and it is between me an him, he often stays, unless he gets personal, which is another "felony" He can tell me to my face that the call was horsesh*t, but as soon as he says that *I* am horsesh*t, then he is done.

BTW, do you keep the guy in the game who tells you that "you are horsesh*t" and only you hear him?

Blaine

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I will remember to poll the players the next time I call a pitch.

Peace [/B]

But this is where your scince is wrong. Your will get a split decision 50/50.

In my case both the batters and the pitchers said dump him! You call basketball, so you KNOW that in the post, we allow the PLAYERS to determine jsut how much to let go before "clamping down." If you don't let them play, or let too much go, they will let you know. No different here. The players have told me what they expect.

[DG]

This post has reached 5 pages, and going nowhere. Let's end it, and go on to something more interesting...

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

I am truly amazed at the general tenor of this thread. Even the law realizes that one size does not fit all. (Switching perhaps from the shoe to a hat metaphor.)

One person kills another. In Texas the range of penalty is from two years to death. Similarly, whatever anyone claims to believe, no good umpire can use a rigid game control philosophy and trust it to handle every situation.

And it is the umpire's duty to enforce the rules of the organization that hires him and ensure that no team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. It is not our job to promote our definition of civility.

1. I should know better than to argue with an expert, but, what the hell....

Carl, you keep trying to make this a general offense, it is not. It is very specific. Change your example to the premeditated, well planned and executed, cold blooded killing of a police officer. Trust me, even in Texas that will draw the same penalty every time.

Drawing a line...ejection, everytime.

2. This change of heart, or the acquisition of one,that you have experienced is hard to adjust to. Your recent posts are 180 degrees from the many on related topics I have on file. Maybe it's just the difference in audience.

3. Upon further reflection, your inconsistent, "guess what's going to happen this time" method may have merit. Pschologists have shown that while inconsistent negative reinforcement in lab rats may not bring about desired behavioral changes as quickly as consistent negative reinforcement, it does mess up their little brains causing symptoms similar to those of mental break downs and paranoia. Maybe it will do the same to diamond rats.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG
This post has reached 5 pages, and going nowhere. Let's end it, and go on to something more interesting...

Yeah...something like catch and carry.

[DG]

Get off my case on catch and carry. I understand what the poster was asking now, and I did not in the beginning. This is a value to reading these posts, unlike the no value I am getting from reading about the the line in the sand...