Line in the sand

[GarthB]

Originally posted by DG

[/B]

The MLB Umpire Manual is written for major league umpires, not LL umpires, low adult league umpires, etc. What is written don't make it right for all levels... [/B][/QUOTE]

How ridiculous.


Okay, the OBR is written for adult men playing MLB. It is not, nor was it ever written for youth play. So does that mean that it shouldn't be used for levels other than MLB? Be your rationale, yes; but by all that makes sense, Of course not.

As in many activities, the pro levels set standards that carry over into the amateur levels. This is one of them.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Just shows again that you are dumber than a box of rocks. Most LL's I am aware of pay umpires to work.
[/B]

Really? According to Andy Konyar tLL's national umpire coordinator, it is LL's national policy to not pay umpires. All adults who work with Little League: coaches, board members, umpires, etc. are supposed to be volunteers.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB

Really? According to Andy Konyar tLL's national umpire coordinator, it is LL's national policy to not pay umpires. All adults who work with Little League: coaches, board members, umpires, etc. are supposed to be volunteers. [/B]

I do not give a crap what it is suppose to be, the reality is that many "local associations" pay the umpires that decide to do it.

In the town where I began umpiring, the local Park District had an Umpire group. And the Umpire group ran was ahead of all the umpires that worked on any of the Park District Fields. And no one did it for free. If you worked LL or Pony or Legion, you got paid for it. And the people that assigned you, were working thru the Park District.

I do not care what it is suppose to be, but many are paid. If they did not pay, umpires would go other places and make sure they are paid.

Peace

[Carl Childress]

Part One

In my capacity as Umpire-in-Chief for several Youth Leagues (Shary Plantation USSA, McAllen Pony, Weslaco Little League) I've assigned myself to many games with untrained umpires as partners. I've worked games from 12 and under (60 feet) to NCAA and MSBL games (90 feet).

Baseball is baseball.

They still have to pitch, hit, run, pick it up, and throw 'em out.

But I haven't called a major/minor Little League game (Tee, that's where the runners can't leave their bases until the pitch reaches the plate) in 40 years. If I live another 40 years, I'll still be able to make that statement.

The problem with many "veteran" umpires is they lump all Youth baseball into one category, "Little League," the game they see at the World Series. But that "game" is just a small part of the larger Youth baseball program. It gets so much attention because they've sold their product better than anyone else.

Last night I umpired a double header in Junior League: 90-foot bases, ages 13/14. Tee, you'd find it "interesting": Coaches may not warm up pitchers on or off the field; one adult coach must remain in the dugout at all times; two coaches must be in the coaching boxes, but one may be a player if the team is short an adult; the adults may not take their positions in the boxes until the pitcher/catcher combination has concluded the warm-up tosses; there's a designated runner who might, for example, run for the fat first baseman.

Etc.

But the rule book is based on the OBR. The Little League book for divisions of players aged 13 through whatever is the closest book anywhere to the old OBR we grew up with.

I've always thought Tee's antipathy to "Little League" results from the size of the field and the lack of training exhibited by the umpires one sees on TV. I've always wished I could assign him to a Junior League game with one of my trainees as his partner. I believe I'd have a convert, especially when he saw how much he was getting paid for a 1:45 minute time-limit game.

Part Two

Despite what Tee says, there is no editor of this site. The Forum is an independent part of Right Sports, Inc., not connected in any way with Officiating.com. I do not have editing rights on "this" site.

Part Three

I've saved the inciting topic for last: "Drawing a line in the sand." If you're familiar with Texas history, you know that Col. William B. Travis drew a line at the Alamo. Those who would stay and fight should cross the line. Everyone walked across, so they say, except Jim Bowie: He was carried across.

The line drawn by a batter showing how far he believed the last pitch was off the plate is not so famous -- except on the Internet Message Boards.

(1) Most trained umpires eject for that "offense."
(2) Some don't, preferring to enforce discipline with an FYC.
(3) Some do nothing by rote, simply treating each incident on its own merit.

I teach that (3) is the proper response, but I've use each one on occasion.

A college pitcher/DH once draw a line. He struck out on the next two pitches without ever moving his bat. As he walked away, he said softly: "Ok, smart ***, I hear you talking." I never again had trouble with him. (2)

In a Pony League tournament, the catcher for Team Blue was batting. I called a pitch on the outside corner (say a ball and half off the black). He drew the line, one ball farther off the plate than it was. "Time!" I screamed and went around to sweep the plate. "Listen," I said to the catcher for Team Red, "Take your finger and draw the line that shows where that pitch was." He did. "Now," I said to the batter, "his line was closer to the plate than your line, wasn't it?" He grinned: "Ok, I guess we both missed it." Not a peep from his entire team for the remainder of the tournament. (3)

At the championship game of the National Baseball Congress Texas State Tournament in 1994, the DH for Team Blue was a hotshot player from Texas University. He took a pitch he didn't like and drew a line. He didn't like having to leave the ball park about one minute later. The ejection came about two seconds after his bat left the dirt. Everybody in the county heard "You're outta here!" His teammates didn't like what happened, but they were convinced they had to behave. (1)

You can't stuff every foot into a size nine shoe.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

You can't stuff every foot into a size nine shoe.

I don't think those of us who feel that drawing a line is a major felony are doing that. It all depends on what you consider a foot.

I'm only putting one foot in the size nine shoe, and that's the size nine foot of drawing a line in the sand.

You seem to be preoccupied as to who the foot belongs to, or what his intent was, not it's size.

I don't care who it belongs to. I believe in equal treatment for equal offenses. !4 year old, 20 year old, 35 year old...no matter; black, white, brown, red, green...no matter; team blue, team red, yellow dog democrat...no matter.

I don't care what his intent was, kidding, serious, humorous, pissed, arrogant, ignorant...no matter.

Draw a line, do the time.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by NSump
Time to stir the pot.


Recent game, I saw a PU watch an idiot draw a line in the ground after a clled strike. He DID NOT eject.

Now, this isn't Pro baseball, it is low-level adult ball. Can ANYONE out here tell me why you wouldn't toss the guy who draws the line and tells everyone tht you are an incompetent a** in the process of doing so?

Also, if you don't tell me how your actions WILL NOT screw the guy who needs to deal with him the next time he does it.

Without hesitation or ceremony I would have given this guy and "E" ticket for the ride to the parking lot.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Apr 25th, 2004 at 07:30 PM]

[GarthB]

JRut: "I do not give a crap what it is suppose to be...

I've noticed that.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JRutledge

For one, this is not an automatic ejection in my book. You can send a message without throwing out a kid. You can make it be known that he now has defined his strike zone and call anything that looks like it comes near the boxes and he will get the message. I had this happen to me after I struck out a kid and I had a talk with an experienced assistant and I had no problems the rest of the game. And I know a lot of very experienced umpires that do the same. Now this does not mean you should never not eject a kid, but "there is more than one way to skin a cat." And a good coach is going to get the message and take care of it himself.

But that is my opinion, I am sure someone else will tell you what they do.

Peace

It does not matter whether the age level is adult or youth, this is an automatic ejection. The batter is trying to make a horse's rearend out of the PU. I can assure, that if either of our two son's pulled a stunt like this batter, my wife and I would have yanked our son out of the batter's box before the PU could finish giving him the boot. Fortunately, our son's now this and they know that they are not to even look cross-eyed at a sports official.

As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense. The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
JRut: "I do not give a crap what it is suppose to be...

I've noticed that.

Do not try to bring this into a general discussion about other things.

If I was not doing things that were not only endorsed, but expected by the folks that make major decisions, then I would not be working. Plain and simple. Which is why I have accomplished the things I have.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


It does not matter whether the age level is adult or youth, this is an automatic ejection. ....

As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense. The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible. [/B]

BRAVO. You sir "get it"

If you let him draw the line, what next? Let him curse a blue streak?

why not let him take a swing at you?

Again, Bravo. Bowling Green is in good hands.

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense. The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible.

I am truly amazed at the general tenor of this thread. Even the law realizes that one size does not fit all. (Switching perhaps from the shoe to a hat metaphor.)

One person kills another. In Texas the range of penalty is from two years to death. Similarly, whatever anyone claims to believe, no good umpire can use a rigid game control philosophy and trust it to handle every situation.

And it is the umpire's duty to enforce the rules of the organization that hires him and ensure that no team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. It is not our job to promote our definition of civility.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

It does not matter whether the age level is adult or youth, this is an automatic ejection.

Whatever you say Mark. I still disagree with you. But what else is new.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
As I stated earlier this month in a basketball thread, civility in society (as well as sportsmanship) has been declining over the last fifteen years, and to condone behavior of the batter as described in the original post, is shear nonsense.

I agree that sportsmanship is on the decline, but it is not because someone draws a line or not. And I do not know many situations in basketball where all officials handle a situation in "one voice" not matter what. The beauty of baskeball officiating, is that many philosophies are embraced and considered.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The batter's conduct cannot be rationalized in anyway possible.

No one is rationalizing anything. Many of us are just disagreeing on how it is handled. You eject them on the spot, I call strikes that he can see. And I feel I get the coach on my side and you eject and have the possiblity that a coach will not understand your rational, many because you are using a standard that does not apply at all levels (the Major League one ) And when I hear guys say there is only "one way to...." I tend to be very skeptical of what comes next.

Again, you do not have to agree. I will do what I feel is best and has worked for me. I have never gotten any complaints from anyone.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

The line drawn by a batter showing how far he believed the last pitch was off the plate is not so famous -- except on the Internet Message Boards.

(1) Most trained umpires eject for that "offense."
(2) Some don't, preferring to enforce discipline with an FYC.
(3) Some do nothing by rote, simply treating each incident on its own merit.

I teach that (3) is the proper response, but I've use each one on occasion.

[/B]

And Carl, you are wrong. To teach a NEW UMPIRE to not eject is just plain stupid.

NEW umpires don't have the experience to learn complex game management tools that you are teaching. Just keep ejecting and they will stop drawing the line. After time, they will learn game management and these incidents will stop.

I bet you a "dollar to a penny" that after a month nobody in McAllen would draw a line on me.

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have never gotten any complaints from anyone.

Peace
[/B]

If you have officiated at all, this statement is just pure rubbish. Regardless of how you deal with this, you will get complaints.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump


BRAVO. You sir "get it"

If you let him draw the line, what next? Let him curse a blue streak?

why not let him take a swing at you?

Again, Bravo. Bowling Green is in good hands.

Please tell me you are kidding?

So drawing a line means that they will not swing at you first? So if you allow them to draw a line in the sand then that means they will never curse you out because you made a call they did not like?

Interesting take. I will have to remember that next time.

Peace