Line in the sand

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C
Rut, you tire "us" . . .

Tee

Then go away. Because fat ***, old umpires like yourself, just make me laugh.

Peace

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by DG
The MLB Umpire Manual is written for major league umpires, not LL umpires, low adult league umpires, etc. What is written don't make it right for all levels... [/B]

Like I said, it was posted for those who give credence to authoritative references.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think."

[DG]

Originally posted by Tim C
DG:

Why would I even answer a guy that does not know what "Catch and Carry" means!!??

What a dolt . . .

When you start working "real" baseball (that is games played by real rules with shaving aged players) get back to me.

I really hate Little League season when the inmates that work those games control Internet Umpire sites.

Tee



[Edited by Tim C on Apr 24th, 2004 at 11:08 PM]

I have never officated a LL game, but I would not belittle one who has, and I work many games with players who shave. What that has to do with anything, I don't know. You obviously have no respect for anyone doing small ball, and very little respect for your peers, as evidenced by your posts herein. Of course you have few peers, the only ones you have respect for are the ones that agree with you, and I am not among your group, and I can live with that, easily.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dave Hensley
Like I said, it was posted for those who give credence to authoritative references.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think."

Do you have any direct references from the NCAA or National Federation on this issue?

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Tim C
I have nothing but laughter for those who fall for the "work for free mentality" of Little League baseball.

This sites's editor has called me "the arch enemy of Little League Baseball" and that is probably accurate. I have nothing but distaste for LL, that starts with Andy Konyar. The King of Idiots!

Just shows again that you are dumber than a box of rocks. Most LL's I am aware of pay umpires to work. But then again, that is why you are who you are.

Stick to that fantasy of a life you seem to want to convince us you lead.

Peace

[millhouse76]

OK. Time to quit throwing S**t. Here is the deal. You can choose to let it go, or you can do something about it. If you are seeing it at the LL levels, it is because they have seen it on TV, and on TV the guy was done. He his showing you up, arguing balls and strikes, and most of all, going against the integrity of the game. You must do something about it.

As far as letting the guy erase the line, so you let him show you up, and then let him take it back. Would you let a guy tell you that you are horses**t, and then if he apologized, let him stay? Just curious, becuase I see those as two in the same.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Do you have any direct references from the NCAA or National Federation on this issue?
[/B]

The NCAA Instructions to Umpires are similar to the guidelines given in the MLB Umpire Manual, but do not specifically address drawing a line. The FED casebook and rulebook refer only in general terms to ejections for unsportsmanlike conduct.

I can confidently confirm that the general understanding that drawing a line on an umpire is a no brainer ejection is shared at the highest levels of the NCAA's umpire hierarchy, as well as at reasonably high levels of the NFHS umpiring administration. This is based on personal, non-published conversations I have had with these individuals, both via email and in face to face visits over hot wings and beers, and you are, of course, free to give it as much or as little credence as you deem appropriate.

You can judge my credibility by what I've posted, just as I've formed a judgment and perception of your own game management skills based on your posts.

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Do you have any direct references from the NCAA or National Federation on this issue?

Peace [/B]

Mr. Rutledge:

It is not in writing - yet, however in the Great White North (Canada), the instructions to the umpires at the National tournaments last year was that this was to be an automatic ejection and any other similar foolishness was to also be dealt with.

This was to be so at all levels, regardless of the "importatnce" of the game, the inning, the score, anything.

Now, this isn't Pro, NCAA or FED, but for what it is worth, it is the "best" amateurs from the various divisions from across the country with usually the "best" umpires from the areas as well.

[NSump]

Originally posted by DG

This post started over a situation that happened in low adult baseball, not LL. Why do you come here? You never have anything constructive to say.

Guys:

I posted a game management situation because those are what separate the quality of umpires.

We have differing opinions on this. I will continue to argue my point and teach all umpires at every level this is a felony.

What amazes me as I look at the posts is how did TEE become part of this discussion? He has posted nowhere in this thread, yet his "quotes" are everwhere?

Forums like this should be used to help teach and inform. To post "quotes" from other discussions is hijacking a conversation for your own purpose.

I will stand behind my decision to eject.

[JRutledge]

To both of you I understand where you are coming from. But I am telling you that umpires who I know personally, have talked to about many things, do not agree with your handling of this. Not to say that an ejection is never in order, but I have had umpires tell me of things they did and there was no ejection involved. And I am not just talking about some LL umpire or someone doing the lowest of levels of HS ball making those claims. I am talking about NCAA and Minor League guys and individuals that have attended pro school. And these conversations have been in meetings and at the bar or resturant afterwards. So it is clear that many handle this in differnent ways and I really do not see what is wrong with that? And I have never taken and dispute over balls and strikes as "automatic" either. I usually give them a chance to understand what they are doing and if they want to press forward, then they have hung themselves. Just my style and the way I do business. And the fact that you cannot show me any evidence directly from the NCAA or FED, tells me a lot. That tells me that they do not use the mentality that the pro game uses for their game. And just because we can come up with some instructors that say to do one thing at the lower levels, does not mean that there is agreement. Because for the guys that have never been pro umpires or ever attended pro school, they are not going to adopt something that automatically because one person tells them. It would help if those bodies put it in writing if that is what they want.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by NSump


What amazes me as I look at the posts is how did TEE become part of this discussion? He has posted nowhere in this thread, yet his "quotes" are everwhere?

Tee did what he always does. Erases his posts to try to hide the evidence. I do not have a hard on for TEE in any way to go some other post and bring it to this discussion. If he fell off the face of the earth, I would not notice. Not only is he an insiginificant figure in my umpiring experience, I am sure he is that way to many others as well.

Originally posted by NSump
Forums like this should be used to help teach and inform. To post "quotes" from other discussions is hijacking a conversation for your own purpose.

I agree, but no one hijacked anything. He just erased his posts, or someone else did it. Probably because he did not at all stick to the discussion and came here name calling and trying to bittle people, like he does.

Originally posted by NSump
I will stand behind my decision to eject.

And you have every right to. I am not here to change your mind. I am here to have a discussion which has been interesting and enlightening on many levels. It is just sad that folks cannot have different opinions and not realize that it is not about only their opinion. I do not think the original question was asked without some understanding there their are different views on what to do. I am sure in the mind of the poster that asked the question, there was some doubt because of discussions he has had or seen before.

Peace

[NSump]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Tee did what he always does. Erases his posts to try to hide the evidence.
Peace [/B]

I didn't know they were there originally. Regardless, everything else I said remains.

[sir_eldren]

Somebody, somewhere posted the following:

"I give NO VALUE to guys who work Little League . . . it is not real baseball."

It's not in this thread originally, but the fact of the matter remains: This post has become one about drawing a line in the dirt to personal attacks about how different umpires view justice and what levels of baseball are "real."

For anybody who believes that Little League ball or anything else with unskilled and unknowledgable players is not REAL baseball, I want you to go out to the field and gather the kids around you. Make sure you're wearing your umpire uniform. ;o) Next, I want you to inform the kids they are not playing real baseball and that they are not important. You will be the most dispicable, crude, and downright lowliest person I've ever had the displeasure to come in contact with.

ANY game played is ALWAYS an important game to everybody involved: the players, coaches, and the parents. Who cares if they aren't capable of making extravagant diving catches or catching the ball and making tags with stunning accuracy. Who cares if you've got to expand your strike zone because the kids are learning how to pitch. It's baseball, and the kids love it. They want to be there, and they want to have fun. They like playing their game, and they certainly wouldn't appreciate having somebody like you tell them that they're wasting their time.

To anybody that holds that view of Little League: you are pathetic. I certainly hope you never come in contact with children.

-Craig

[Rich]

Originally posted by sir_eldren
Somebody, somewhere posted the following:

"I give NO VALUE to guys who work Little League . . . it is not real baseball."

It's not in this thread originally, but the fact of the matter remains: This post has become one about drawing a line in the dirt to personal attacks about how different umpires view justice and what levels of baseball are "real."

For anybody who believes that Little League ball or anything else with unskilled and unknowledgable players is not REAL baseball, I want you to go out to the field and gather the kids around you. Make sure you're wearing your umpire uniform. ;o) Next, I want you to inform the kids they are not playing real baseball and that they are not important. You will be the most dispicable, crude, and downright lowliest person I've ever had the displeasure to come in contact with.

ANY game played is ALWAYS an important game to everybody involved: the players, coaches, and the parents. Who cares if they aren't capable of making extravagant diving catches or catching the ball and making tags with stunning accuracy. Who cares if you've got to expand your strike zone because the kids are learning how to pitch. It's baseball, and the kids love it. They want to be there, and they want to have fun. They like playing their game, and they certainly wouldn't appreciate having somebody like you tell them that they're wasting their time.

To anybody that holds that view of Little League: you are pathetic. I certainly hope you never come in contact with children.

-Craig

I work LL, mostly at tournament time, but I don't begrudge anyone who feels that way about LL. Tee speaks his mind and you know what he thinks.

Why is being honest "pathetic?" Rest assured, Tee will never work LL, so why do you care?

--Rich

[Dave Hensley]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I work LL, mostly at tournament time, but I don't begrudge anyone who feels that way about LL. Tee speaks his mind and you know what he thinks.

Why is being honest "pathetic?" Rest assured, Tee will never work LL, so why do you care?

--Rich [/B]

I also work Little League, and I'll go even further than Rich to endorse much (but not all) of what Tee says. Little League (and other youth league programs) are in many real and significant ways NOT "real baseball," and it is important that everyone understand and respect the distinctions. Certainly Tee is more dismissive and disparaging of those who umpire the games played by prepubescents than I am, but he is articulating a frustration that exists with legitimacy, especially given the appearance of "equal footing" that message boards such as this one give to all points of view.

This thread has been an excellent example of how difficult real, enlightening dialogue can be between veteran umpires with substantive contributions to make on the craft of umpiring and rookie "true believers" full of piss and vinegar and egos of their own.

At least the moderators/censors appear to have taken the weekend off and allowed the fur to fly. That's been entertaining.