When Is a Runner Down?

[DadofTwins]

Question about Philadelphia's last challenge flag Sunday night:

Is a ball carrier down if his elbow/knee/whatever touches a defender lying on the ground, or can he keep going forward until his body hits grass?

Reid's challenge was based on where McNabb's elbow touched the turf. But the last few feet of McNabb's movement came while lying on top of a defender.

I can't find anything in the NCAA or NFL rule books to address the question.

[Mike L]

NCAA rule 4.1.3.b - A live ball becomes dead when any part of the ball carrier's body, except hand or foot, touches the ground.

So, unless you choose to consider another player as "the ground", touching a player laying on the ground with any body part does not make the ball carrier down.

I don't know much about NFL rules, but I'd bet somewhere in there is the about the same wording.

[mbyron]

Other players are not the ground. The ground is the ground.

[john_faz]

I have a related question:

If the runner touches ground with the ball (by palming it) to steady himself but stays on his feet, would this be considered "down"?

[HLin NC]

no

[DadofTwins]

Originally Posted by Mike L

NCAA rule 4.1.3.b - A live ball becomes dead when any part of the ball carrier's body, except hand or foot, touches the ground.

So, unless you choose to consider another player as "the ground", touching a player laying on the ground with any body part does not make the ball carrier down.

I don't know much about NFL rules, but I'd bet somewhere in there is the about the same wording.

Thanks.

[HossHumard]

Agreed on all counts above in three down ball as well, but if a player is lying on top of another player but about to get creamed by some defensive players, I find that's usually a good reason to kill the play assuming he's not going to gain any more yardage...

[JasonTX]

I recall in the game in question that the replay didn't show where McNabb's left elbow was. Was it or the ground or what is not? The Referee announced that the ruling on the field "stands" and did not use "confirmed" Just not enough evidence to overturn it.

[APG]

NFL 2009

Rule 7, Section 4 Dead Ball

Article 1

An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended:

(e) when a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet, ball shall be declared dead immediately.

Note: The ball is dead at the spot of the ball at the instant the runner so touches the ground, irrespective of the condition of the field. A runner touching the ground with his hands or feet while in the grasp of an opponent may continue to advance.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

I recall in the game in question that the replay didn't show where McNabb's left elbow was. Was it or the ground or what is not? The Referee announced that the ruling on the field "stands" and did not use "confirmed" Just not enough evidence to overturn it.

I believe they did show a reply showing McNabb's elbow on the turf, but there wasn' clear evidence to show whether the ball should of been moved forward or not

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Agreed on all counts above in three down ball as well, but if a player is lying on top of another player but about to get creamed by some defensive players, I find that's usually a good reason to kill the play assuming he's not going to gain any more yardage...

Sounds like his forward progress is stopped, which means he's down. IMO, it's a bad policy to call a runner down because he might get hit. Call him down when he's down.

[HossHumard]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sounds like his forward progress is stopped, which means he's down. IMO, it's a bad policy to call a runner down because he might get hit. Call him down when he's down.

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HossHumard

Really? Well, when you have a ball carrier who runs into a group of players and starts to get pushed backwards while still on his feet with no hope of breaking free you'll almost always see a whistle at NFL, CFL and amateur on both sides of the border....how is that different?

It's all about player safety in a situation like this, especially at amateur....

Maybe that is how they do it in Canada, but where I live that is not what we do. There are many plays where the whistle is not blown at all. And we certainly are not blowing the whistle if a player is still fighting or not really grasped.

The play in question looked like it might have been an issue or forward progress being stopped first. Then when the pile was moving McNabb fell forward. At least this is what the official that was ruling on the play was thinking. Because I recall that McNabb did go backwards.

Peace

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by john_faz

I have a related question:

If the runner touches ground with the ball (by palming it) to steady himself but stays on his feet, would this be considered "down"?

No, not down. Additionally, if he were to fumble the ball when that happened, it's a fumble. So, in essence, the ground caused the fumble and he is not down.

[HossHumard]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Maybe that is how they do it in Canada, but where I live that is not what we do. There are many plays where the whistle is not blown at all. And we certainly are not blowing the whistle if a player is still fighting or not really grasped.

The play in question looked like it might have been an issue or forward progress being stopped first. Then when the pile was moving McNabb fell forward. At least this is what the official that was ruling on the play was thinking. Because I recall that McNabb did go backwards.

Peace

Agreed, if the ball carrier is still fighting and there is the possibility he could gain additional yardage then no, I wouldn't kill the play either. But in situations where it's hopeless and the ball carrier is in danger then I'm going to kill it. I don't work pro level and did not see the McNabb play, but I acknowledge things can be different in the show than at amateur.

I'm curious about you having "many plays where the whistle is not blown at all".....what circumstances occur to present that situation? How does the play end? I know there's many differences between three and four down ball, but this is one I've never heard of before.

And peace back to you as well..especially on this, November 11th.

Lest We Forget.