rule question

[stewcall]

Team A in the back court rolls the ball in bounds. Player A2 bats the ball forward 4-5 times--- Clock starts at the first bat ball. The question for me is are the bat balls legal or illegal? Our interpreter said he thought it was illegal, but would seek further clarification. If it is illegal? what is the call...
Is it a dribble?
Interested in what folks think
stew in Va
thanks in advance

[SC Official]

A dribble involves pushing or batting the ball to the floor.

If the ball is rolling on the floor, batting it does not meet the definition of a dribble.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

I’m just trying to picture this in my mind to see if any of the actions as described appear to be illegal. I don’t see anything that would prevent that. Play on.


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[bucky]

Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up. Ruling?

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball. Ruling?

[BillyMac]

I had something similar happen to me in a Catholic middle school game fifteen years ago (remember it like it was yesterday). "Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble).

I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If you can fumble the ball around trying to catch pass and move several feet without a violation, why can't one do the same with a ball on the floor?

I reckon you can if it is indeed a fumble, but one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

Seems like a no call however, theoretically, one could easily gain an advantage by such actions.

[Nevadaref]

Player control is defined as holding or dribbling the ball.
This action is neither of those. Therefore, we do not have a player in control of the ball. This player may bat the ball along the floor as much as desired. It is up to an opponent to come put a stop to it.

All this constitutes is a player batting a loose ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Ball handler" was batting the ball around on the floor (I can't remember if it was after his dribble had ended) and seemed to gain an advantage in a crowd of opponents, so I sounded my whistle and ruled a travel (or maybe an illegal dribble). I discussed this with my partner after the game and she convinced me that I was incorrect in my ruling (should have been no call). I spent a long time in the rulebook and casebook (and may have brought it to the Forum) and decided that she was correct, there was no violation.

Originally Posted by bucky

... one can easily push the ball along the floor in a controlled fashion. At least in these cases, the action mentioned was meant to be a controlled manner of pushing the ball.

In my situation (above) there were definitely pushes in a deliberate, controlled manner, and it definitely was an advantage for the ball "handler", as he deliberately put his opponents at a definite disadvantage by pushing the ball away from his defenders.

But with all that, the correct call is still a no call.

In this situation, the ball "handler" is not holding the ball. In this situation, by rule, the ball "handler" is not dribbling the ball. By rule, not a travel. By rule, not an illegal dribble. By rule, nothing illegal.

The coaches and fans can complain until the cows come home (I work a lot of games in rural areas, with John Deere tractors in the school parking lots), the correct call is a no call and play on.

Confucius says, "If it's not illegal, it's legal".

[Camron Rust]

I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules. If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

But are you sure it's a duck?

It looks just like a dribble, but a dribble in only two dimensions, just left and right, forward and back, no up and down.

[stewcall]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I'd say you're stepped into an area not covered in the rules.

It partially meets the concept of dribbling, but it doesn't quite meet the literal definition...so does that make it an illegal dribble???

If it is a controlled action, I'm going to invoke 2-3 and treat it like a dribble. It is close enough in purpose and principle.

This seems to answer my question--- for me it's either a dribble or nothing--- If it is a dribble-- Then Player grabs the ball with 2 hands and then dribbles we have a double dribble--- YIKES---I think I'll go with a no call
thanks all
stew in VA

[billyu2]

Originally Posted by bucky

Case: The ball rolls near A1. A1 begins pushing the ball, with one hand, along the floor all over the court and finally picks the ball up. A1 then begins dribbling. Ruling? Does it matter if the ball was pushed with two hands?
Ruling: Double dribble. Two hands? On the initial roll, no. Subsequent touches, yes.

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then picks up the ball.
Ruling? Double dribble. If holding the ball, A1 can legally touch the ball to the floor.


Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet and then A2 picks the ball up.

Ruling? Violation. A1 has released the ball to the floor a second time. If he is the first to touch the ball it would be a double dribble.

Case: A1 is dribbling ball and then picks up his dribble. A1 then places the ball on the floor and ceases to have contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball along the floor for 10 feet. A1 picks up the ball.

Ruling? Same as previous case. A1 is the first to touch.

Technically, in the rule definition "pushes the ball to the floor" it doesn't say the ball has to bounce, that's just the way we are accustomed to seeing it. Whether the player in control of the ball pushes (bounces) throws, drops (not fumbles), places or rolls the ball; the fact is, the ball has intentionally gone from the player's hand(s) to the floor. Prior to dribbling, if A1 sets the ball on the floor, adjusts his waist band, picks up the ball and dribbles he has violated. If, instead of picking up the ball, he smacks the ball causing it to start bouncing and continues to dribble he has not violated. If A1 has used his dribble and is now trapped, he cannot roll the ball between the legs of the opponent, run around the trap and be the first to touch the ball just as he cannot throw the ball over the opponents to the floor and be the first to touch the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by billyu2

Technically, in the rule definition "pushes the ball to the floor" it doesn't say the ball has to bounce, that's just the way we are accustomed to seeing it. Whether the player in control of the ball pushes (bounces) throws, drops (not fumbles), places or rolls the ball; the fact is, the ball has intentionally gone from the player's hand(s) to the floor. Prior to dribbling, if A1 sets the ball on the floor, adjusts his waist band, picks up the ball and dribbles he has violated.

As the Devil's advocate, I most point out that the casebook clearly says otherwise:

4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

[Raymond]

In Bucky's scenario, he has already traveled. Lifted and replanted the pivot foot while in player control.

I'll try to find something to back me up later.

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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

In Bucky's scenario, he has already traveled. Lifted and replanted the pivot foot while in player control.

Travelling doesn't involve player control, it involves holding the ball.

Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed
limits while holding the ball.

Originally Posted by bucky

A1 dribbles and then holds the ball, establishing his right foot as the pivot foot. A1 then places the ball on the floor with his right hand never losing contact with the ball. A1 then pushes the ball in a controlled fashion, along the floor for ten feet, taking several full steps, and then picks up the ball.

In bucky's scenario when did the player both hold the ball and move his pivot at the same time?

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'll try to find something to back me up later.

With one rare exception, a player must be holding the ball to travel.

Was this is the back of your mind?

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or request a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Or was it this:

After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the
ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

And this:

A fumble is the accidental loss of player control when the ball
unintentionally drops or slips from a player’s grasp.

In bucky's case the ball on the floor was not a result of an unintentional accidental fumble, rather it appears to have been a deliberate act.

Not ruling this a fumble creates an interesting option.

Could this be traveling?

Great thread.