The butt bumping thread

[potato]

Many people use their butt when boxing out for rebound, establishing post-up positions, under the basket putbacks, whether it's offense or defense.

I play pickup games and often get intentional butt bumps, either directly from the butt or the side of the hip. I get annoyed because it usually bounces be away.

Which makes me wonder in an official game, how much of your butt can you use to your advantage?

For example:

1.The offense is directly under the basket, back/side facing the defender (who is behind him) who has established a good position with arms up & body close, the offense need space, so he does a pump fake, which usually involve squatting down, butt out and bumps the defender away with the butt and takes an easy shot.

2.2 guys going for a rebound, they try to box each other out, one guy uses his butt "accidentally" to bump the other guy out while he gathers for the jump.

It's not a nice feeling getting bumped especially when it hits your tummy or crouch.

[JetMetFan]

Crouch???

At any rate...what you're dealing with, basically, is displacement. Have I called fouls on players for using their rear end to move someone from one spot to another? Yes, because it's no different than facing the opponent and using your hands to move them. If they're using their backside and you're using yours but no one is moved off their spot there's no advantage gained so no need for a whistle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Displacement.

Good answer.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good answer.

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Crouch???

At any rate...what you're dealing with, basically, is displacement. Have I called fouls on players for using their rear end to move someone from one spot to another? Yes, because it's no different than facing the opponent and using your hands to move them. If they're using their backside and you're using yours but no one is moved off their spot there's no advantage gained so no need for a whistle.

Agreed.

Displacement, affecting "Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness", contact that creates an advantage (or places the other player at a disadvantage), rerouting.

Those will answer the vast majority of the myriad "how much contact is allowed" questions you posed.

[HokiePaul]

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

This applies to several situations, but the one I see most commonly is the defender putting his leg/knee squarely into the butt crack of an offensive post player. There's always a look of bewilderment when I call that one. I'll usually warn first, then I'll blow the violation if they don't remove the knee from the arse.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told.

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

This applies to several situations, but the one I see most commonly is the defender putting his leg/knee squarely into the butt crack of an offensive post player. There's always a look of bewilderment when I call that one. I'll usually warn first, then I'll blow the violation if they don't remove the knee from the arse.

Just putting the knee there isn't a foul. Requires displacement or (less likely) "holding" to be a foul.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just putting the knee there isn't a foul. Requires displacement or (less likely) "holding" to be a foul.

If the placement of the knee is outside the defender's area of verticality and restricts and/or limits the offensive post player's freedom of movement, I call the foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

Regarding 5 and 6, some sort of displacement or advantage is required before a foul is considered. Merely "causing contact" is not a foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

Simply using the word isn't going to get a coach to magically understand. If he's been teaching the kids it's ok to move the opponent as long as they have inside position, giving him a new word of the day isn't going to change his mind.

I just go straight to, "coach, boxing out is holding your position, not moving the other guy out of his."

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Adam

Regarding 5 and 6, some sort of displacement or advantage is required before a foul is considered. Merely "causing contact" is not a foul.

I'm not sure that is correct by rule (maybe i'm not interpreting this correctly). In practice, yes, I'm looking for displacement or advantage, however, I do not think this is "required".

The full text of Art 6 is: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane which is a foul.

That seems to be very straightforward that "contact outside the vertical plane" for a defender with legal guarding position is a foul. No displacement or advangage is necessary. Again, I'm not calling a foul if the defender gently touches the opponent. But it appears to me that by rule, I could.

[Adam]

It needs to be read in concert with the incidental contact rule.

"contact which does not....is not a foul."

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.