Correct Procedure?

[kayla vb]

Reffing my first tournament of the year in a region that is allowing the libero to serve for the first time this season (so the process is new to all the coaches and players).

I'm the R2 (actually getting rated at the time). Team on my left sideouts and rotates. Their two middles run in and out for each other, just like they would if the libero were going back to serve. Then I notice the person that serves the ball is NOT the libero!

So what do you do? The foremost question is whether to blow the play dead right away or wait until the rally is completed.

It's worth noting that we had a work team no-show so I had a national-rated scorekeeper working for me.

I'll post more info and the result (I think I got it right). But I want to hear your opinion on what should have happened at this point and what we should be looking for going forward.

[PaREF]

Well, I have to make some assumptions before I can say what I would have done. I assume that you mean the libero was in for (had replaced) the middle after he/she lost the serve. If that is the case, and the front-row middle was to rotate into the back row, then you have several violations.

1. Illegal libero replacement. If the libero was in for the middle (who came onto the court) then the only way that the libero could stay on the court would be to serve for the middle coming off (assuming that the libero had not served in any other rotation). If the libero does not serve and stays on the court, it is illegal because the libero must sit out one rally before replacing another player.

2. Illegal substitution. Assuming that the middle was to rotate into the serving position (and everything in #1 was correct), the serving team needed to substitute in order for someone (from the bench) other than the middle or libero to serve.

3. Incorrect server. Assuming that the middle was supposed to rotate into the back row to serve AND someone already on the court (other than the libero) actually served, then you have an incorrect server.

Again, I'm assuming that the middle playing front row was supposed to be the one to rotate into the back row. If a different player was supposed to rotate into the back row, then you can add in illegal alignment as another option.

I suppose that you could whistle the play dead after the R1 beckoned for serve (for illegal libero replacement) but I'd wait until the serve was contacted before killing the play. Then I would take my pick between 1, 2, and 3. After that, I would expect to have to take a couple of minutes to explain what was wrong and get everyone into their correct positions.

[MCBear]

PARef, you're using NFHS rules which do not apply.

Kayla, under USAV rules, we do nothing until contact of the serve. At that point, we blow the whistle for the improper replacement/illegal substitution (whichever it was) and signal out of rotation. Then, we verify the line-up and make the necessary corrections. Once corrected, the opponent rotates and serves due to the IA.

[oldsetter]

nothing happens until it happens.....

[FMadera]

This early in the season...I might work with them to fix it if it doesn't cause a delay. There's a learning curve going on, and I wouldn't recommend being overly punitive in a situation where they just may not have any idea what they're doing.

However, normally, yeah, contact of serve, illegal replacement, point and service to the opponent. This will probably change in the next couple of years, since FIVB is changing this to allow for a delay if fixed before service, if my memory serves me right.

[kayla vb]

Originally Posted by MCBear

PARef, you're using NFHS rules which do not apply.

Kayla, under USAV rules, we do nothing until contact of the serve. At that point, we blow the whistle for the improper replacement/illegal substitution (whichever it was) and signal out of rotation. Then, we verify the line-up and make the necessary corrections. Once corrected, the opponent rotates and serves due to the IA.

So my concern with blowing the play dead upon contact of the serve is that I don't know what the fault is. Maybe I should know the lineup better but my issue is that I don't know who is SUPPOSED to be on the court at that moment. Maybe the random running on and off the court corrected a previous rotation faul that I missed. To be honest, I'm not positive the person who ran INTO the game was the person previously replaced by the libero. I have a national-rated official working the book and I know it isn't a wrong server.

Always been instructed not to blow the play dead until you see a violation. I saw something weird, but without knowing what it is do I end the rally? Or wait until the end to see if the players on the court match who should be on the court according to the lineup sheet and libero tracking sheet?

[kayla vb]

Originally Posted by FMadera

This early in the season...I might work with them to fix it if it doesn't cause a delay. There's a learning curve going on, and I wouldn't recommend being overly punitive in a situation where they just may not have any idea what they're doing.

The issue is I see the two non-liberos exchange and assume it's no issue (and that the libero will go serve). I don't realize it's not the libero serving until after the beckon so this isn't really an option.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by kayla vb

So my concern with blowing the play dead upon contact of the serve is that I don't know what the fault is.

You have contact of serve after an illegal replacement. You can't have two replacements in the same dead ball unless the libero is going to be the next server. Once the ball is contacted, dead ball. You don't need to know the other stuff...even if the server was legal, the replacement was not; therefore, once the ball is contacted for serve, blow it dead, point and service to the opponent.

[Antonio.King]

Where was the libero after all this? Still on the sideline? And who went back to serve instead of the respective middle/libero? Curious as to what age this was too. o.o