Correct Procedure?

#1 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 10:34am

I have to prewarn you that this is a long story.

A1 is fouled at the division line by B1. B1 then slams the ball down and says "bulls**t". I call the block which is B1's 4th foul and bonus shots for A. Also call the T which is B1's 5th foul. The table informs me of 5th foul so I take a few steps toward B1 and tell him he has 5 fouls, I then go over to Head Coach B and inform him of the disqualification and subsequent 30 seconds to replace him.

This is where it gets good... As I'm waiting for the 30 seconds or the replacement player, my partner has begun to administer the free throws for the one and one and the T!!! As I hear the "AWWW's" from the crowd I turn to see this bad thing happening. I immediately step in front of the shooter and quietly ask my inept or thoroughly stupid partner, what he was doing? He says he's administering the free throws. I ask him if he has another appointment to get too, because he should at the very least, have made eye contact with me before he administers the free throws, never mind the fact that the replacement for the disqualified player had not been replaced yet!

Now, here's where I need to know if I had the correct procedure. My partner said that A1 made the first of the one and one, missed the second and made the first of two for the T, before I stepped in. I said they don't count, we eliminate anything that happened during that time and begin with the one and one, then shoot the T. A1 misses front end of one and one and makes both for the T, then made throw in from division line. Did I procede correctly?

Sorry for the length of this thread. BTW my partner is still alive, although, the Gambino family is looking for him.

Dan_ref · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 10:43am

IMO the FT's happened during a dead ball period and you
are correct, wipe it all away & start again. This was
discussed on McGriff's, I believe.

devdog69 · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 10:59am

Your partner did at least have the lane cleared right? I don't think I would go to this length to show my partner up, even though you may have rule support. I think I would just let him know very sternly not to shoot any more and that he was very wrong in doing so to begin with.

Bart Tyson · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 11:40am

Sorry, but i have to disagree. This is not a correctable error. The three shots he took stand. When you get the sub in you shoot the 4th shot and then ball at the division line.

Brian Watson · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 12:51pm

There is no correctable error in this sitch, what happened stands, and you can wait to shoot the lst o the shots.

BTW - How did they get off three shots b4 you noticed?

#6 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 01:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
There is no correctable error in this sitch, what happened stands, and you can wait to shoot the lst o the shots.

BTW - How did they get off three shots b4 you noticed?

I guess oops is in order for eliminating the free throws and starting over. The lane was clear when I looked over. I was standing in front of the table waiting for a subsitution/replacement. There was alot of confusion and I figured my partner would wait for the proper procedure to unfold. Notice I didn't use the word "assume". Thanks for the input, just another reason why I like this forum so much.

Brad · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 01:17pm

I agree that this is not a correctable error. In technical terms we call this an "official screw-up"!

Don't make things difficult on yourself and make a bad situation worse. Get the sub in, shoot the last free throw and inbound the ball.

Then, after the game, discuss the situation with your partner.

Dan_ref · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 01:33pm

I agree this is *not* a 2-10 correctable error, but that
does not mean the FT's should stand, by rule. IMO these
FT's are the same as shoting FT's during a time out.
During a TO the ball is dead for 60/75/30 seconds until the
time it is made available. During the 30 second period to
replace a disqualified player the ball remains dead. Among
the things you can't do during a dead ball is score points.

Having said all that, I agree that it might be appropriate
to just let the FT's stand in this case. Maybe.

paulis · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 01:34pm

they shot 3 free throws without you noticing? If you have a T on a player or coach you should immediately get together with your partner and discuss the procedure. Yes, your partner goofed but it sounds like you should have conferred with him before it got to the point that it did.

Slider · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 02:33pm

Let the FT's stand, there was nothing "unfair" about proceeding, in this case it is administrative error, no disadvantage.

tharbert · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 03:10pm

I'm wondering why DR considers this a dead ball? An official placed the ball at the disposal of a free throw player. It doesn't take two officials to make a ball live, just one, right or wrong. That ball is live...erroneous or not. I agree the FT's stand. I don't see how this falls under any of the correctable errors. Just looks bad.

Also, I may be sticking my neck out here because I don't have my book handy but isn't the "30 seconds for a replacement" only a time limit set on the coach? He may elect to take all or some of that time but play resumes as soon as the substitute is waved in. The other team doesn't get any remaining time...

Did the coach go balistic?

Brian Watson · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I agree this is *not* a 2-10 correctable error, but that
does not mean the FT's should stand, by rule. IMO these
FT's are the same as shoting FT's during a time out.
During a TO the ball is dead for 60/75/30 seconds until the
time it is made available. During the 30 second period to
replace a disqualified player the ball remains dead. Among
the things you can't do during a dead ball is score points.

Having said all that, I agree that it might be appropriate
to just let the FT's stand in this case. Maybe.

Becasue it is not a 2-10 error is exactly why you leave the points up. These were not improperly awarded free throws, just imporperly administered timing wise. There is nothing in the rules or case book to support taking points off the board, unless they were improperly awarded.

Brad · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 03:24pm

If you are going to attempt to be a by-the-book official then, technically, you are also going to have to call a T on the other team for not having enough players on the court, right?

Of course not. That's stupid.

You have to use common sense. Your partner hands the ball to the free thrower, then the free throw(s) need to count.

I agree with the others that this is not a correctable error as defined in 2-10. It is also not the same as shooting during a time-out, since the official handed the ball to the shooter, making the ball live.

rgaudreau · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 05:31pm

One thing I would have done differently would have been to inform the coach that his player was disqualified before informing the player. Then if they player does something ridiculous he'd be considered bench personnel.

Ren

bob jenkins · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 12, 2002, 06:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brad
If you are going to attempt to be a by-the-book official then, technically, you are also going to have to call a T on the other team for not having enough players on the court, right?

No -- that's only if they violate the "resumption of play" procedure (not all returning at the same time).

In this instance, the team is "allowed" to play with four until they can get the next player legally on the court.

Compare 10.1.9 and 10.3.4C