Correct Procedure?

Ralph Stubenthal · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 08:55am

Last night we were lined up for 2 free throws. During the first shot by A1, B1 entered the lane early by pushing into A2. The basket was good so I called a foul on B1 and cancelled the lane violation. We proceeded to shoot the 2nd shot and then gave the ball to team A because of the foul on B1 (the bonus had not been reached). It occured to me later that I should have cleared the lanes for the 2nd shot since the ball was going to Team A. Other than that was this handled correctly?

Todd VandenAkker · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 09:11am

Yup, assuming that the contact was significant enough that you couldn't ignore it and give the kid a friendly warning on the side before administering the second shot.

Bart Tyson · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 09:18am

Todd, What am i missing here? Why are we clearing the lane and why are we giving the ball the team A?

Brian Watson · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 09:30am

Because somthing happened before the free throw "process" was complete (in his case, a foul), causing the ball not be put back into play off of the result of the free throw itself, the lane must be cleared.

Todd VandenAkker · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 10:55am

Right. It's a false double foul situation, so if the ball is not to remain live after the second free throw from the first foul, you clear the lane. Then you deal with the second foul that occured.

Bart Tyson · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 04:23pm

OK Todd, I was thinking a "false" refers to a foul during a dead ball. Is the first of a two shot considered a dead ball?

bob jenkins · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 06, 2000, 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK Todd, I was thinking a "false" refers to a foul during a dead ball. Is the first of a two shot considered a dead ball?

No -- false means one (or more) of the requirements for a (true) double foul aren't met. In this instance (if I remember the play correctly), it's the "opponents against each other" and "approximately the same time" provisions that aren't met.

On any free throw, first or last, ball to remain alive if missed or not, the ball is live when it's at the disposal of the free-thrower. It may become dead or remain live, depending on the success of the the throw and what's to happen next.

Todd VandenAkker · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 07, 2000, 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK Todd, I was thinking a "false" refers to a foul during a dead ball. Is the first of a two shot considered a dead ball?

I understand your line of reasoning there, but the "false" really means another foul occurred before the clock started again after the first foul was called. It isn't tied to live ball/dead ball. That would explain why it can be a false double foul, even though, as you initially suspected, the ball is LIVE during the first free throw--that is, the ball is live, but the clock hasn't started yet when the second foul happened.

mcdanrd · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 07, 2000, 05:32pm

Rule 6 Section 7 Article 2 states that a ball remains dead on free throw which is to be followed by another free throw. Therefore any contact during the first free throw that was sufficient to warrant a foul would have to be considered a technical foul per rule 4-19-1 and 4-19-5.

Todd VandenAkker · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 09:10am

OK, again I can see the thinking there, but I believe you are misunderstanding the rule. First, Rule 6-7-2 says the ball becomes or remains dead when "it is apparent the free throw WILL NOT BE SUCCESSFUL (emphasis mine)," which says to me that the ball is live until you're sure the shot missed or is completed. Second, contact during a dead ball is ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant (4-19-1-note), so contact warranting a call during a free throw would still be a personal foul since we obviously don't ignore it. And third, Casebook situation 6.7F supports that a personal foul would be called, in that it indicates you would award the ball OOB for a throw-in (prior to the bonus). Bottom line: I still believe it would be a personal foul and NOT a technical. (Note: References are based on '99-'00 books, since that's what I keep in my office.)

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Dec 8th, 2000 at 08:15 AM]

Bart Tyson · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 09:16am

Thanks, I will try to remember this situation, SO I DON"T CALL A FOUL.

mcdanrd · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 10:31am

Todd, looks like your right. Case Book 6.7B is probably a better reference. It seems to fit this scenario perfectly. For whatever difference it makes, the foul will be a common foul, not a personal foul.

Todd VandenAkker · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 10:59am

Ooh, I love semantics! So . . . a common foul IS a personal foul (4-19-2), so we're both right. And your casebook play was essentially the same one as I mentioned, but certainly explained the scenario and ruling more fully. Didn't even look further when I found the one I cited.

Ralph Stubenthal · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 12:18pm

Thanks for all the comments, guys. After pondering the situation for several days, I have come to the conclusion that I will try to never call another foul between shots on a 2 shot free throw situation. I did it that time simply out of reaction. I'm am thankful that it was a JV game and not a district Varsity. The call and the ensuing procedure sold perfectly and everything went well but both coaches were docile all night anyway. In a different scenario it could have gotten nasty.

Brian Watson · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Dec 08, 2000, 02:24pm

Never, say never. Don't swallow yourfox 40 just because it is a free throw. If there is that much contact - Call the obvious.