Proper Signal

[bbsbvb83]

In a match governed by NFHS rules:

Team R's left front, at the ten foot line, drives the ball toward Team S's court. The ball goes into the center of the net, and lands out of bounds on Team R's side of the net.

What is the proper signal?

[Antonio.King]

I would've gone "out" and indicate that player.

I don't think there is a specific signal for this (at least in collegiate or in USAV), but clarifying for the spectators is always appreciated.

But, that's what I would do. I'm guessing "Ball In" may suffice as an appropriate signal if that was the third teams contact since you don't have to wait until the ball hits the ground afterwards (after 3 hits) to blow your whistle.

[MCBear]

bbsbvb83, the proper signal is Signal 10 "Ball Touched" per the 2012-13 Case Book and Manual, page 72:

*Used to indicate a touch off a block or team's first, second, or third contact with the ball landing out of bounds on that team's side of the net.

Antonio, Signal 13 "Ball Lands Inbounds" is never an appropriate signal in the situation that is given because the ball is not down in the court. The ball is not dead when the third contact goes into the net...it has to hit the floor, pass completely under the net, or contact the antenna or net outside the antenna per Rule 9-3-3.

[bbsbvb83]

Thanks for the responses, Jan & Antonio. I attended the Officials' Conference in my state last weekend. One of the mini-sessions dealt with signals, and we were given a worksheet when we walked in the door. In the situation I gave, I thought (and still do think) the appropriate signal was, without question, #10... Ball Touched. The head clinician of our state had a different opinion, however, and said the appropriate signal is #14... Out Of Bounds, followed by pointing to Team R's left front.

[MCBear]

bbsbvb83, your interpreter probably refs NCAA and/or USAV. In those rule sets, "Out" is used. I would probably use it also IF the manual didn't specifically say otherwise. Good luck!

[oldsetter]

Jan,
Where does the manual 'specifically' says that. Not arguing, just did not remember seeing it. Since I do NCAA and USAV, I just assumed that NFHS was vague on this situation and did not cover that scenario. It would be nice if they clarified that and even nicer if they went with the other rule set conventions - of course.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Antonio.King

But, that's what I would do. I'm guessing "Ball In" may suffice as an appropriate signal if that was the third teams contact since you don't have to wait until the ball hits the ground afterwards (after 3 hits) to blow your whistle.

Why not? The ball is not dead until it hits the floor or there's a 4th contact. What if there's a net violation prior to the ball hitting the floor?

By all means you should wait until the ball hits the floor before you blow the whistle.

[oldsetter]

(signal 14, out) casebook, pg 86, out-of bounds (4th bullet)
* The ball goes into the net and lands out of bounds on the attackers side.

so a newbie asked me if a team shanks a pass into the gym wall on their side of the net, is it a touch or out signal. We play in some tight gyms.

Here is my thoughts:
Signal 10 (touch) Used to indicate a touch off a block or a teams 1st, 2nd or 3rd contact LANDING out of bounds on that teams side of the net. (I put landing in all caps....hummm is hitting a wall 'landing')

Signal 14 (out)

Bullet (2)
* The ball completely crosses the center line extended OR......breaks the plane of a non-playable area beyond the legal reach of a player.
Bullet (5)
* The ball hits the net on or outside the antenna, cables, net support, or referee's stand.
Bullet (7) A ball contacts a vertical backboard (or it's supports) and in the opinion of the first referee the ball would not have remained in play had the backboard not been there.

Based on signal 14, I would rule the wall the same as a backboard.....We don't call touch or replay, we call out or replay. Also, I would say based on bullet 2, a ball that is passed in the stands on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd contact is out of reach and this too is an out signal, not touch.

How many people get that right?

[chapmaja]

We have had this discussion in the past in Michigan.

What I have always been told is that if the team has not directed the ball towards the other teams court (such as an attack as described in the OP) and the ball touches anything out of bounds it is a touch signal. If the team attempts to hit the ball to the opponents side and it goes into the net and then its the floor it is the signal for where it hit (normally I will always use the ball down signal because I rarely see that ball land out of bounds). If the ball is not and breaks the plane of the net, then it's either in or out (or touched if the opponent touches it).

I think the out call can actually lend itself to confusion in situations similar to the OP. For example, instead of the ball hitting the middle of the net, it hits the tape as a blocker attempts to (but does not contact) block the ball. The ball then lands out of bounds. Even though we signal the point first now, signally out would indicate to many that the ball was touched by the blocker. Signally down ball eliminates this confusion for those who aren't paying 100% attention (which often includes coaches).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by oldsetter

(signal 14, out) casebook, pg 86, out-of bounds (4th bullet)
* The ball goes into the net and lands out of bounds on the attackers side.

so a newbie asked me if a team shanks a pass into the gym wall on their side of the net, is it a touch or out signal. We play in some tight gyms.

Here is my thoughts:
Signal 10 (touch) Used to indicate a touch off a block or a teams 1st, 2nd or 3rd contact LANDING out of bounds on that teams side of the net. (I put landing in all caps....hummm is hitting a wall 'landing')

Signal 14 (out)

Bullet (2)
* The ball completely crosses the center line extended OR......breaks the plane of a non-playable area beyond the legal reach of a player.
Bullet (5)
* The ball hits the net on or outside the antenna, cables, net support, or referee's stand.
Bullet (7) A ball contacts a vertical backboard (or it's supports) and in the opinion of the first referee the ball would not have remained in play had the backboard not been there.

Based on signal 14, I would rule the wall the same as a backboard.....We don't call touch or replay, we call out or replay. Also, I would say based on bullet 2, a ball that is passed in the stands on the 1st, 2nd or 3rd contact is out of reach and this too is an out signal, not touch.

How many people get that right?

I would say this also lends itself to confusion.

For example, instead of the ball being touched on the block a player knows the ball will be long and is attempting to avoid touching the ball. It glances off her arm as she tries pulling the arm back and then the ball his the wall. If we signal out, the majority would assume the ball went out untouched, when in reality, the ball was touched, even though it wasn't on the block.

This is why we are told the touch call is the better call to use in many of these instances because it eliminates the chance for confusion in many cases.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

We have had this discussion in the past in Michigan.

I think the out call can actually lend itself to confusion in situations similar to the OP. For example, instead of the ball hitting the middle of the net, it hits the tape as a blocker attempts to (but does not contact) block the ball. The ball then lands out of bounds. Even though we signal the point first now, signally out would indicate to many that the ball was touched by the blocker. Signally down ball eliminates this confusion for those who aren't paying 100% attention (which often includes coaches).

I would recommend *against* this. Ball down should only be used by the first referee on a ball that lands in bounds. We're giving the point to the blocking team, which would eliminate some of the confusion. Just signal out, then indicate off the attacker. Do *not* signal ball down in this instance!

[oldsetter]

Ok, I just tripped across this in the casebook. pg 8 2.3.1 sit D,

Team A's second contact a) lands in the bleachers on team A's side....The official signals out of bounds. Incorrect procedure. When a teams 1st, 2nd, or 3rd contact lands out of bounds on that teams side of the net the signal is #10 Ball Touched. It makes no difference if the ball lands in a playable or non-playable area in this case.

Well, that clears up a lot for me. I don't know how I missed that. I think the description of signal #14 in the casebook confused me. It seems contradictory to me.

So I am guessing a wall is probably closer to a non-playable area than a basketball backboard in a vertical position?