The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Volleyball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 09, 2008, 01:53pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,655
Two hits

I worked a match recently in which one team's bench complained that I was not calling double hits, to the point where I issued a yellow card to the assistant for gesturing about it several times. I seem to have trouble seeing this fault, and the head coach seemed to think that it was there on every other rally.

Do you have any suggestions for recognizing the double hits? Is it a fault just because the setter tries to set the ball to one side? Adding to this is the NCAA directive this year to be slightly more lenient on ball-striking in some cases. So I'm kind of at a loss for this particular call. Any help would be appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 09, 2008, 02:43pm
Resident VB Rules Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Jose, CA - the Capital of Silicon Valley
Posts: 481
Send a message via AIM to MCBear Send a message via MSN to MCBear Send a message via Yahoo to MCBear Send a message via Skype™ to MCBear
Scrapper, the only real way to determine doubles is to see them. Disregard spin (although it MAY be a clue) and the player's body position. The easiest way to pick up a double is to focus on the hands of the player when she contacts the ball. Avoid following the ball into the hands - you won't be able to pick up the multiple contacts at all.

Good for you on carding the assistant coach for inserting herself/himself into the match. Since the ball-handling is always a judgment call, I may cut the head coach a little slack (very little!), but I have no tolerance for assistant coaches trying to influence my calls or trying to make me look bad (I can do that all by myself without any help!).

Since you use NCAA rules, the NCAA ball-handling directive applies, but it sounds like your coaches still want ball-handling called the same old way - tight. The thing to remember with the directive is that the player has to be making an athletic play on the ball for the minor double to be ignored. If the player catches it or chucks it over the net, it should still be called - we do not ignore the catch or the throw if it occurs.

Hope that is a little help.
__________________
Jan G. Filip - San Jose, CA
EBVOA Rules Interpreter Emeritus
NCS Volleyball Officials Coordinating Committee Recorder
CIF State Volleyball State Championships Referee (2005), Scorekeeper (2006-2007) & Libero Tracker (2010)
PAVO State Referee (2014) / PAVO Certified Scorekeeper (2014) / PAVO Certified Line Judge (2012)
USAV Junior National Referee (resigned 2013) / USAV National Scorekeeper (2014)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 10, 2008, 05:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 34
Send a message via AIM to Retrozetti
"Athletic Play" leniency

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear View Post
The thing to remember with the directive (NCAA) is that the player has to be making an athletic play on the ball for the minor double to be ignored. If the player catches it or chucks it over the net, it should still be called - we do not ignore the catch or the throw if it occurs.
Additionally, it was made crystal clear at the Big Ten rules meeting (and also at the Great Lakes Regions newest USAV rules meeting... because its coming to USAV as well)... leniency on "athletic plays" is ONLY to be given when the ball is being passed to another team contact (usually setter to attacker). If itīs a double-contact that is deemed an athletic play, but the ballīs next legal contact is by an opponent, then a double-contact fault must be called. It was made clear that the rule is not in place to allow an advantage to that team. So, only possible leniency on 1st contact going to a 2nd contact, or a 2nd contact going to a 3rd contact... never on a ball going over (or more accurately, legally contacted by opposing team). And the leniency should only affect a "tiny percentage" of your judgement calls.
__________________
Michael Ochs
USAV Provisional, PAVO Local, LJ & SK, NFHS Recognized
A sponge for knowledge...
Not just a sponge for the rules, but for the philosophies behind the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 10, 2008, 07:44am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Janesville, WI
Posts: 747
Send a message via ICQ to FMadera Send a message via AIM to FMadera Send a message via Yahoo to FMadera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrozetti View Post
So, only possible leniency on 1st contact going to a 2nd contact, or a 2nd contact going to a 3rd contact...
There is no leniency required on 1st contact going to 2nd contact, as multiple contacts on 1st contact (in one play of the ball) is never illegal, no matter how bad it is.
__________________
Felix A. Madera
USAV Indoor National / Beach Zonal Referee
FIVB Qualified International Scorer
PAVO National Referee / Certified Line Judge/Scorer
WIAA/IHSA Volleyball Referee
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 10, 2008, 08:27am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 96
As a ref, your visual acuity is more focused on player (ball handling) rather than ball. You're eyes are beating the ball to player and not following the ball. In simplicity, line judging, you're eyes never follow the ball. You will not see the floor contact, when it's a blurr.

If the NCAA way comes to USAV, then this is seriously gonna change the way how coaching player skills gets done following afterwards. Pros and cons to everything.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 12, 2008, 05:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 34
Send a message via AIM to Retrozetti
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
There is no leniency required on 1st contact going to 2nd contact, as multiple contacts on 1st contact (in one play of the ball) is never illegal, no matter how bad it is.
True. I was just providing an example to depict leniency on the contact passing to an additional team contact. I assumed we all know 1st hit can be multiple contact provided itīs one motion of playing the ball. But your clarification removes any "judgement of 1st contact" confusion.
__________________
Michael Ochs
USAV Provisional, PAVO Local, LJ & SK, NFHS Recognized
A sponge for knowledge...
Not just a sponge for the rules, but for the philosophies behind the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 12, 2008, 10:01am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear View Post
The easiest way to pick up a double is to focus on the hands of the player when she contacts the ball. Avoid following the ball into the hands - you won't be able to pick up the multiple contacts at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniSpiker
As a ref, your visual acuity is more focused on player (ball handling) rather than ball. You're eyes are beating the ball to player and not following the ball.
Thank you both for these very practical suggestions. I will start trying to work on this more this week.

I discovered that this is also important when watching the net as R2. I had a hard time determining if the ball or the hands contacted the net. And then last week, out of the blue, I realized that when I picked a spot on the net and just watched that spot, I saw the action much more clearly.

So my mission for this week is to find the hands, and just watch the hands, not the ball. Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 12, 2008, 06:59pm
Resident VB Rules Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Jose, CA - the Capital of Silicon Valley
Posts: 481
Send a message via AIM to MCBear Send a message via MSN to MCBear Send a message via Yahoo to MCBear Send a message via Skype™ to MCBear
Scrapper, one other thing that none of us have remembered to post...make sure that you are only moving your eyes when you are following play, not your head. If your head is moving as you focus in on the hands (as R1) or the net (as R2), your vision will not be nearly as good as if your eyes follow the play and your head remains as steady as possible. Good luck implementing the various suggestions. Let us know how things work for you.
__________________
Jan G. Filip - San Jose, CA
EBVOA Rules Interpreter Emeritus
NCS Volleyball Officials Coordinating Committee Recorder
CIF State Volleyball State Championships Referee (2005), Scorekeeper (2006-2007) & Libero Tracker (2010)
PAVO State Referee (2014) / PAVO Certified Scorekeeper (2014) / PAVO Certified Line Judge (2012)
USAV Junior National Referee (resigned 2013) / USAV National Scorekeeper (2014)
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 13, 2008, 07:41am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear View Post
Scrapper, one other thing that none of us have remembered to post...make sure that you are only moving your eyes when you are following play, not your head. If your head is moving as you focus in on the hands (as R1) or the net (as R2), your vision will not be nearly as good as if your eyes follow the play and your head remains as steady as possible. Good luck implementing the various suggestions. Let us know how things work for you.
Professional baseball umpires receive the same training. The instructors use the analogy of a camera: what kind of image will you have if your camera is moving when you take the shot? Keep your head still when you need to make a call (ball handling, tip/no tip, in/out, etc.).
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 13, 2008, 08:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 96
I actually move a lot. It's not about moving and trying to see, I would've moved already to be in the best position to see.

About the not moving your head, you still need to turn your head at times. Two eyes are much better than one. Also that I wear glasses and seeing out of the corner of the lense isn't always the best. Sometimes you have to look up to measure if a ball is into anteanna, sometimes you have to look down right at your feet where the ball lands.

Don't become too focused on holding your head still, do what's more naturally reflexive. Most of the time, you don't need to move, sometimes it's the difference between a iffy call and an accurate call.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 13, 2008, 12:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
To my mind, the issue isn't so much whether to move, but when (and when to be still).
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 17, 2008, 08:04am
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,655
Just another thank you for the help with this. I did a match yesterday, and although I'm quite sure I wasn't perfect, I began to see it a little bit better. My partner (a college assignor) and I watched the setters together during warm-ups and he said "that one's good" or "that one's not good" and sometimes I saw the difference and sometimes I didn't. But he was very helpful, as were the comments in this thread. So thanks again to you folks who have really helped me a lot this season.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ball hits bat Rachel Softball 3 Wed Apr 26, 2006 08:28am
3rd strike dropped hits me, hits batter out of box chuck chopper Softball 8 Sat May 07, 2005 01:21am
ball hits top of bb in or out StevenW Basketball 4 Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:40am
batter hits ball after hits ground kfinucan Softball 13 Sun Jun 29, 2003 09:29pm
Scoring hits Newbie Baseball 1 Mon Apr 28, 2003 06:06am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:14pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1