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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 12:43pm
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Game situations

A couple of situations. Proper penalty/procedure, please.

1. Libero is playing in the LB position. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, the Libero moves to the serving position. Team A properly executes the double replacement. After the R1 signals to serve, the Libero (server) kneels, sets the ball on the floor and, with a wave, proceeds to re-tie her shoe. More than five seconds pass.
2. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, team A requests a substitution as RF rotates to a serving position on the left (bench side of the court). R2 whistles for the substitution, but his “two toots” were not clear and distinct. While the substitution was still in progress (player and substitute had not been released) the server proceeded to serve. R1 had not signaled to serve.
3. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, team A server is in position to serve as her teammates rotate to take offensive positions. R1 whistles for the serve. An instant later, almost simultaneously, R2 recognizes that a player is approaching the substitution zone and whistles. No substitute had left the bench at the time of the whistles.
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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 02:02pm
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1. By rule, 5-second violation. Game management (and practice in your area and level of play) might allow a re-serve and the shoe to be tied.


2. Blow the whistle to stop play. Tell (gently) the server to wait for the beckon. Complete the sub. Beckon for serve.

3. YUD. Better for R2 to wave the player away -- especially as she was just "approaching" the zone at this point.
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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 02:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
1. By rule, 5-second violation. Game management (and practice in your area and level of play) might allow a re-serve and the shoe to be tied.


2. Blow the whistle to stop play. Tell (gently) the server to wait for the beckon. Complete the sub. Beckon for serve.

3. YUD. Better for R2 to wave the player away -- especially as she was just "approaching" the zone at this point.
Agree with 1 and 2.

3 depends on if the coach requested a sub. If so, YUD. If not, there was no legal sub request to whistle, so team should not be assessed a sanction due to the error of the R2. If there was no legal request, consider it a re-serve (no sub allowed), and re-beckon for serve.
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Last edited by FMadera; Thu Oct 03, 2019 at 05:02pm.
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Old Thu Oct 03, 2019, 09:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
A couple of situations. Proper penalty/procedure, please.

1. Libero is playing in the LB position. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, the Libero moves to the serving position. Team A properly executes the double replacement. After the R1 signals to serve, the Libero (server) kneels, sets the ball on the floor and, with a wave, proceeds to re-tie her shoe. More than five seconds pass.
2. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, team A requests a substitution as RF rotates to a serving position on the left (bench side of the court). R2 whistles for the substitution, but his “two toots” were not clear and distinct. While the substitution was still in progress (player and substitute had not been released) the server proceeded to serve. R1 had not signaled to serve.
3. After a loss of rally/point by the opponent, team A server is in position to serve as her teammates rotate to take offensive positions. R1 whistles for the serve. An instant later, almost simultaneously, R2 recognizes that a player is approaching the substitution zone and whistles. No substitute had left the bench at the time of the whistles.
Here is my take on these.

1) This likely depends on the game situation as much as anything. If this is an isolated incident where it is obvious that there is a safety concern for the player tying her shoe, I am killing the "play" and we will have a replay, as I feel this is a player safety issue having an untied shoe during play. I will not count this as a re-serve because I would consider it as a player safety issue. Now, if I see her untie and re-tie the shoe after the whistle and beckon for serve, then this is a 5 second violation. (See note at the end of this post).

2) I had a similar situation in a multi-court gym a couple years ago. Player heard a whistle and unleashes a screaming jump serve that clocks an unsuspecting player in the head. The coach of the hit player is demanding a card be issued for unsportsmanlike conduct. It was clear to me that the act was not intentional as there was a whistle from the adjacent court. (Ref stands back to back) just prior to her serve. I had properly double whistled for the substitution, but the process was taking longer than the server expected since there were multiple substitutions on each side of the net. Since it was not an intentional act, the serve did not violate the rules. The rule does say a server may not intentionally serve prior to the beckon for service.

(A card was issued but it was to the arguing coach who simply would not stop arguing).

3) In this instant I feel the R2 made a mistake. The post says the R2 witnessed the player approaching the substitution zone. You are not supposed to whistle when they are approaching the substitution zone, but when they enter the substitution zone. By whistling when they were approaching the zone, the R2 has created a problem. Had he/she waited until they go into the zone, they should have simply waved the potential sub back.
I don't feel the YUD is appropriate in this situation given that the R2 was the one who made a mistake. (It is my practice, as an R1 to always check to see if there is any movement on the bench after I stick my arm out, that way I can see if anyone is trying to do a late sub or timeout request. This also helps to avoid the "double whistle situations" between the R1 beckon for serve and R2 whistling for a substitution. It also comes from doing enough freshman and jv one official games where the coaches don't have a clue.


I was observing a match a few years ago where a shoe tying issue resulted in cards being issued. Team A's Libero was obviously tired and needed a break. The team was out of timeouts, so the libero took it upon herself to bend down and slowly untie her shoe then tell the R2 that she needed to tie the shoe. The R2 yellow carded her for unsportsmanlike conduct. His explanation was that he watched the libero intentionally untie the shoe and then claim it needed to be tied. The coach wasn't having it and ended up getting a red card for arguing, including a couple words that shouldn't have been used. This was in the year or a couple years before the YUD and RUD rules came out. Now I think this would simply be an YUD the first time and if it happened again (not during the serve as listed above), then you could argue a yellow for unsportsmanlike.
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Old Wed Oct 09, 2019, 07:51pm
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Thank you for the replies. I was R1, not a lot of experience working with a veteran R2.

1. The reason I mentioned that the Libero had been on the court, that it was she rotating to serve, and that they had properly completed the double replacement was that I felt that she had had sufficient time to give me some indication that there was a problem with her shoe. It was after my whistle for serve that she knelt, UN-TIED her shoe and re-tied it. I called a five-second violation.

2. I forgot/neglected to say, in the OP, that team A had received a YUD* earlier in the set. My R2, as I said, blew a double whistle for substitution that may have sounded to some like a single whistle, but for Heaven’s sake, it was team A that was making the substitution. And, because she was serving from the left side, the substitution was happening right in front of the server. There was no reason to serve and the receiving team was not expecting, nor were they ready to receive, a serve. I gave team A a RUD (2nd UD), and awarded team B a loss of rally/point.

3. There had been no request for substitution that met the requirements of the rule. As I said, no substitute had left the bench and the coach had not requested a substitution. Those are things I look for from both teams before whistling for the serve. R2 was reacting to a player on the floor coming to the sideline. In the end, we disallowed any substitution for one rally and played that point without a penalty of any kind.

*I learned later that the YUD was improper, but is cause for a separate question in a new thread.
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Old Thu Oct 10, 2019, 09:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Middleman View Post
1. I called a five-second violation . . .

2. There was no reason to serve . . .
Just an observation to consider: If someone gets whistled for a five-second violation, I would expect players on both sides to err toward jumping the gun for the rest of the match/day. The circumstances of the violation may matter some, but, particularly as the level gets lower, I would just expect jumpier servers who are needier about communication. Particularly given that this violation was over what sounds like a similar miscommunication/situation, I'd have trouble faulting a player for erring toward serving if they weren't able to absolutely confirm the earlier whistle was not a beckon.
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