Throw your hands up

[dlsumpntx]

What do you think about, at the pre-game conference, telling coaches to have their players throw their hands up if/when a batted ball goes out of play and we will place the runners accordingly? Personally I don't like it because I can tell if the ball goes out of play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by dlsumpntx

What do you think about, at the pre-game conference, telling coaches to have their players throw their hands up if/when a batted ball goes out of play and we will place the runners accordingly? Personally I don't like it because I can tell if the ball goes out of play.

I think it is the same coaching as telling them to keep running in the dead ball topic. It's up to the coaches to teach that. If it does come up, I remind them that the player's signal does not make the ball dead, just indicates that s/he is not touching it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by dlsumpntx

What do you think about, at the pre-game conference, telling coaches to have their players throw their hands up if/when a batted ball goes out of play and we will place the runners accordingly? Personally I don't like it because I can tell if the ball goes out of play.

This is not a problem when on fields that are not completely enclosed and should be part of the ground rules.

It is NOT coaching anyone, but providing the teams with a remedy for a situation that is beyond their control.

And you are full of it if you think anyone is going to believe that you can tell if a ball crossed a line 300' away.

It should be noted that raising a hand is nothing more than an indication that there may be an issue. It does not kill the ball, play or stop the runner. When the play is over, you or your partner can check the ball.

I am not suggesting this be done on the obvious ball entering DBT, but when there may be a question as to the location of the ball.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by dlsumpntx

What do you think about, at the pre-game conference, telling coaches to have their players throw their hands up if/when a batted ball goes out of play and we will place the runners accordingly? Personally I don't like it because I can tell if the ball goes out of play.

I think it depends on the situation. A lot of umpires in my area do say this at the plate conference. I generally won't say it for a multiple umpire system, but will for a single umpire system. This is normally an issue on outfield fence issues rather than infield fence issues. The reason. Many fields aren't high quality fences and the ball can get under a fence and look like it is still in play on some fields. On an infield fence, the umpire should be able to determine if it is or is not in play.

Now, how do I handle a situation when the hands go up? If it is an outfield fence I let play continue then go check the status of the ball. If the ball has in fact gone under a fence or into an out of play area I will make rulings as indicated by the rule book. I do this because if I kill the play as soon as the hands go up, now I have potentially deprived the offense of bases they may attain because I killed the play. If I let play continue I can always apply the rulebook retroactively.

This also stops a situation I had a couple years ago. A player raised his hands saying the ball was out of play. It was at the base of the fence in play. I saw the hands up and killed it. After the game another umpire walked up and told me I had been duped by the player. The guy even climbed over the fence and kicked the ball "back under the fence" (actually kicked the fence so the ball rolled away). By letting play continue I force the defense to play the ball if it really in play. Again, I only do this on the 1 umpire system. On a two umpire system we should be able to see the ball at all times even if it means going out on a fly ball, something that really can't happen on a 1 umpire system.

[prab]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

A player raised his hands saying the ball was out of play. It was at the base of the fence in play. I saw the hands up and killed it. After the game another umpire walked up and told me I had been duped by the player. The guy even climbed over the fence and kicked the ball "back under the fence" (actually kicked the fence so the ball rolled away).

When you say "another umpire", do you mean an umpire who was not working the game but just observing? Hopefully this "other umpire" was not part of your crew.

[EsqUmp]

IS THE BALL LIVE OR DEAD? Who Decides?

Many of you have probably already read articles in previous issues of Referee Magazine regarding liability and enforcement of rules. When umpires stray from the rulebook, they run the risk of facing undesirable situations both on the field and in the courtroom. While umpires must establish dead ball boundaries during ground rules, umpires are not permitted to create ground rules that contradict clearly established guidelines in the rulebook.

While most college fields are well enclosed and pose few dead ball boundary issues, many fields that are used for recreational and travel games are another story. Because of the inconsistencies among fields, umpires should walk the perimeter of the fence when they have not previously worked on an individual field. I have worked on countless fields whose dead ball boundaries are either the spot where the cut grass meets the uncut grass, where the shrubbery begins, or where the field slopes up or down hill. Many fields also have ragged fences that are not flush to the ground, which creates an even more difficult situation.

The umpires should award a ground rule double when a fair-batted ball bounces over, rolls under or goes through a fence or any designated boundary of the playing field. Likewise, if the ball gets lodged in fence, the umpires should award a ground rule double. Let’s use the example of a ball that gets stuck in the gap between the bottom of the outfield fence and the ground. Provided the ball has not rolled completely passed the fence, if the outfielder is able to cleanly pick the ball up, the ball should remain in play. On the other hand, if the outfielder has to pry the ball from the fence, the ball is dead.

How many of you who have encountered similar field conditions have either stated yourself or heard another umpire say during ground rules, “If the ball goes out of play, put your hands up; but if you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Most umpires say this probably because they heard another umpire say it and it sounded good. The problem is that it is in contradiction to the rules book, and is, thus, wrong!

Consider play #1: R1, the team’s fastest runner, is the winning run on first base. B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. F9 raises her hands, followed by the umpires raising their hands. Seeing the outfielder and umpires raise their hands, the base coaches hold R1 at third base and B1 at second base. The base umpire then goes out to the fence and picks the ball up with no problem. It turns out, the ball was never out of play. Now what do you do? The outfielder thought the ball was out of play, but it wasn’t. The umpires subsequently have called a dead ball. Perhaps F9 raised her hands because she knew that R1 would score the winning run and she had no chance of throwing R1 out at the plate. Now what do you do?

Consider play #2: In the bottom of the seventh inning, R2, the team’s slowest runner, is the tying run on second base with two outs. The defensive coach is screaming to her players, “The runner on second can’t score. If she scores, we lose.” B1 hits the ball to the outfield, and it appears to get lodged in the fence. This time, the ball is truly lodged in the fence. Knowing that the game is in her hands, F9 pries the ball out from under the fence, and in the process cuts herself on the fence. Then, F9 throws out R2 by an eyelash at the plate. The offensive team, who just lost, is going to argue that the ball was out of play and the umpires should have declared a ground rule double; thus, the game would be tied and the winning runner would be on second base. The defensive team is going to argue, “No, the umpire said in ground rules ‘If you go in after the ball, the ball is live and the runners can keep running?” Now what do you do?

Believe it or not, the mechanics and the enforcement of the rules pertaining to this play are not difficult. If the base umpire believes that there may be a problematic situation with the status of the ball near the fence, he must go out and observe what happens. The base umpire will then be able to determine if the ball went beyond the fence or got lodged under it. If the ball didn’t do so, the umpire will know by the outfielder being able to cleanly pick the ball up.

Generally speaking, in these types of plays, it is the actual location of the ball that matters, and not what the defense elects to do with it. Once the ball is dead, it’s dead! The subsequent actions of the defense do not make the ball live again. Umpires must avoid coaching players. This includes instructing them to put their hands up, continue playing the ball, or stop running. No umpire should ever here a player say, “Well, I did it because the umpire told me to.” Umpires officiate the game, coaches instruct their players.

[Manny A]

I don't see a problem with those instructions. I've often worked tournament games on fields with temporary fences that stop right at the foul line. At least two or three times a day in my games, a batted ball will go past those fences. Sometimes it's pretty obvious that the ball went through when I see it hit the permanent fence beyond or can tell the fielder is well past the temporary fence. But on those occasions where the ball just trickles beyond the fence is where it becomes problematic. If the fielder plays it, we obviously cannot subsequently rule it dead based upon what she or a coach says. It's best for the fielder to raise her hands and leave the ball alone, and a base umpire will go out there and verify the ball's status.

The problem becomes when an umpire sees the raised hands, and then he/she kills play. Never, ever do that unless you're 100% certain that the ball is indeed in DBT. Just leave it live, and once the umpire verifies the ball did go out of play, place runners back where they belong.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Talk about turning something so simple on its ear.

Who has stated anything about not checking the location of the ball? The answer would be no one.

There are many fields where the BU would have to go out on every ball, including a grounder to the OF simply because of the possibility of a ball leaving play.

Instead, it is more efficient to offer options when something preventing the fielder from playing the ball occurs. Otherwise, the fielder may be forced to play the ball prior to anyone being able to determine the ball's status.

It is not coaching, it is not laziness, it is providing relief due to a deficiency of the grounds on which the game is being played. IOW, special ground rules which is covered in the rule books.

BTW, many tournaments, NQ, RQ, NT & NC are being played by all associations on fields which are not enclosed. I will contend that you are less likely to have arguments or claims by either team if you provide them with direction of how to handle a condition that should not exist than if you keep them in the dark.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by prab

When you say "another umpire", do you mean an umpire who was not working the game but just observing? Hopefully this "other umpire" was not part of your crew.

Yes, he was actually finished working the games on an adjacent field, which had finished. He was walking by the outfield fence when the play happened.