over throw

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

All right folks, once and for all for my edification...

R1 on 1B, off on the pitch, liner caught by F6, airmails the throw over F3's head.

Proper mechanics when the ball enters DBT?
I've usually said "Dead ball! Runner gets 3rd!"

At the time I'm stating this, sometimes R1 is still returning to 1B.
Is my wording correct? Is the timing of this information important, or completely irrelevant?

Regarding the runner, I know she's responsible for knowing her baselining duties, but could the wrong wording be considered misleading?

Various verbs are ok (get, goes to, awarded, etc.)

Base running duties and direction of the runner don't matter; only the position of the runner at TOT (in OP, when F6 chooses air mail).
The important thing is call Dead ball!; then think a bit before announcing the award.
I usually repeat it to be sure all heard and use the time.

[jmkupka]

Thanks Cecil,

Wasn't thinking in terms of getting the award right in my own mind, more about wording and timing the award properly so as not to deceive (?) or confuse the runner about what she should do.

Of course, it's the runner's (& coach's) job to do the right thing...

I'm still waiting for my first RS 38 (exception) ruling. It's almost happened a couple times.

[BretMan]

If I know that the runner still has some baserunning correction to make during the dead ball, instead of saying something like, "Runner gets third base", I'll just announce the base award by holding up two fingers and announcing, "Two bases".

Then it's up to the runner to go back and retouch before completing the award and they can't say I directed them to do anything differently. If the runner gets confused about which base to go to, wait until they touch the first base of their award before helping them out. Once they touch the first base of the award, they can't go back and retouch anyway, so if you tell them to "go to third" at that point you aren't depriving them of any chance to correct their baserunning mistake.

[jmkupka]

Seems like the perfect way to handle it. Thanks.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Once they touch the first base of the award, they can't go back and retouch anyway, so if you tell them to "go to third" at that point you aren't depriving them of any chance to correct their baserunning mistake.

Defined by the time you make the award or the time it's earned? E.g., if she touches second a half step after the ball goes out of play and then starts back for first and then you announce she's got third, is she able to fix her base-running mistake?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

All right folks, once and for all for my edification...

R1 on 1B, off on the pitch, liner caught by F6, airmails the throw over F3's head.

Proper mechanics when the ball enters DBT?

Signal and call "DEAD BALL".

Watch all active runners and remain silent until you are satisfied the runners have completed whatever advance/retreat they intend to make. Then announce the award.

Always wait to announce the award as to not put a runner in jeopardy.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by youngump

Defined by the time you make the award or the time it's earned? E.g., if she touches second a half step after the ball goes out of play and then starts back for first and then you announce she's got third, is she able to fix her base-running mistake?

If this runner was in between first and second base when the throw was made, what is the first base of her two-base award? Second.

If she touched second base after the ball went out of play, has she touched the the first base of her award after the ball became dead? Yes.

At that point the rule says she can't go back and correct her baserunning mistake.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

If this runner was in between first and second base when the throw was made, what is the first base of her two-base award? Second.

If she touched second base after the ball went out of play, has she touched the the first base of her award after the ball became dead? Yes.

At that point the rule says she can't go back and correct her baserunning mistake.

No. And it bothers me when otherwise solid and experienced partners get this wrong. I wonder if this is carryover training from baseball...

The rule doesn't says FIRST awarded base... it says NEXT awarded base. If they were between 1st and 2nd when the ball was released, but between 2nd and 3rd when it went out of play and 3rd base was awarded... THIRD BASE is the next awarded base. If they touch 3rd they can't return. If they do not touch third, they ABSOLUTELY can go back and return to first to retouch properly.

[jmkupka]

They, of course, can touch 3B before retreating to complete their responsibilities; we just have to disallow it upon appeal...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No. And it bothers me when otherwise solid and experienced partners get this wrong. I wonder if this is carryover training from baseball...

The rule doesn't says FIRST awarded base... it says NEXT awarded base. If they were between 1st and 2nd when the ball was released, but between 2nd and 3rd when it went out of play and 3rd base was awarded... THIRD BASE is the next awarded base. If they touch 3rd they can't return. If they do not touch third, they ABSOLUTELY can go back and return to first to retouch properly.

I somewhat disagree. I think BretMans explanation may have been an oversimplification, but would be true if the umpire immediately awarded the bases upon the ball entering DBT. IMO, the next awarded base is the first base of the award. Nothing is awarded until the umpire says it is. And there needs to be the consideration that just because the umpire calls, yells, bellows "dead ball" doesn't mean everyone hears or instantaneously heeds the call and continues playing through a lot of noise and sometimes confusion.

This was a bullshit rule change for 2003. The reason offered was "To prevent the possibility that once a base runner advances, they may not return to any base they've gone beyond on the award. This would permit the defensive team to make any appeal as soon as the base runner advanced to or past the next base."

When it went into effect, we were clearly instructed (and passed this on to the local umpires) to not be hasty in announcing the awards simply to avoid this type of mess.