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Mon Sep 08, 2003, 03:02pm
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These questions were posted on a "local" internet softball board by a coach (yeah, I know - local internet - an oxymoron, but the regulars there are about 90% from a 3 state area), along with answers that supposedly came from the state ASA UIC.
I think two of the five answers are incorrect. Here are the questions & answers the coach posted & my answers. I'm interested in comments, esp. on Q4 & Q5... Questions are in regard to R1 on 3rd at the start of the pitch. ASA 10U fast pitch. Q1... If pickoff attempt from catcher or pitcher, can runner be put out, if off base? A....yes Agreed. Q2... If pickoff attempt goes out of play, is runner awarded home? A... yes Agreed. Q3...If runner breaks for home on other than hit or BB/HBP with bases full, can she be tagged out? A... yes Agreed. Q4... If said runner crosses home, can she be tagged out? A... yes, the runner must trace her steps back to 3rd and can be put out while trying to get back. No run counts Agree with the no run counts part. Disagree that the runner must trace her steps back to 3rd. However, if she does and is tagged between home and third, then she is out. Also, she would not be out if tagged after touching home while still on the playing field. Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling? A... Runner is out of play and declared out, no run counts. Disagree. After play stops, runner is returned by the umpire to 3rd. No run scores, player is not out. I know the state UIC personally, and will not contradict him directly on the board, however, I did post an uncommented quote from the Case Book (play 8.4-7), which leaves just enough wiggle room with it's unstated details. I've sent the UIC an email with my comments, above. We'll see. Meanwhile - comments?
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Tom 
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Mon Sep 08, 2003, 03:37pm
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Quote:
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Speaking 10U JO ball. Rule 8.4.H.1 notes that when a runner advances farther than permitted, she may still be put out while not in contact with a base. Same rule then states, "A runner cannot be put out while in sole contact with a base." Since a runner who has scored is not required to hold the base, I would have to think the quoted sentence would equally apply to those who have completed the four-base circuit. Rule 8.4.H.2 specifically notes that when all play ceases, a runner who has advanced farther then permitted is to be returned to the proper base. JMHO,
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Mon Sep 08, 2003, 07:32pm
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Tom, Mike,
I agree - do some 10U, however, do try to avoid it.. Q1, 2, & 3 are simple....and you two have as I see it correctly clarified and simplified the answer to Q4,5. Would like to know what the UIC said.... glen
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glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Mon Sep 08, 2003, 10:54pm
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Quote:
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Tom
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Mon Sep 08, 2003, 11:03pm
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Tom
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Tue Sep 09, 2003, 01:41am
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I have coached LL several years and this was my first year helping with ASA 10U . I don't have a rule book! I was wondering about Q2 . I thought the only way you could go home was after the ball was hit or BB/HBP. I'm sure you all are right about this but I was just wondering what the rule was. Thanks, Brian
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Tue Sep 09, 2003, 05:56am
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"I have coached LL several years and this was my first year helping with ASA 10U . I don't have a rule book! I was wondering about Q2 . I thought the only way you could go home was after the ball was hit or BB/HBP. I'm sure you all are right about this but I was just wondering what the rule was."
Thanks, Brian Brian, ASA Rule 8 Sec 4 H. 6. Runners can only score on: a) a batter ball. b) a base on balls or hit batter with bases, full or c)on an awarded base when the ball goes: 1) out of play, or 2) on an illegal pitch. Hope this helps. glen
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glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Tue Sep 09, 2003, 10:44am
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What Glen said, Brian.
The key phrase in Q2 is "goes out of play." This results in an award of two bases from the time of pitch, which would score runners who were on 2nd or 3rd. So, the runners aren't stealing home - they are being awarded home.
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Tom
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Tue Sep 09, 2003, 10:25pm
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Question???
OK, I do some 10-U, although, I prefer older girls, where the rules are standard. It's not the age, it's the rules. I do have 2 questions.
1) I understand the logic about crossing home plate and having nowhere to go. But, that coach knew she couldn't steal home, it's still a live ball, why not allow a defensive play on a stupid offensive play? The only time I wouldn't allow it is if she was standing on home and didn't come off it. Just because she crossed home doesn't mean the play has ended. She or at least, the coach, should know that wasn't a legal play. She is still in jeoopardy and has to get back to third. 2) Why wouldn't she have to retrace her steps? For example, if she was on 2nd and advanced on a hit, missing third and crossing home, she's gonna have to touch home before she can go back to 3rd to touch the base. Why not in this situation, just because she isn't allowed to steal home, shouldn't mena the rest of the rules don't apply. Along these lines, the abandoning the base should apply, shoudln't it? Rick
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 01:04am
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The 10U baserunning rules are a bit of an odd mix.
It is not illegal for a baserunner at 10U to run the bases the same way as any other FP softball player. Notice she is allowed to do that. It's just that the 10U baserunner is only entitled to advance so far. There is no penalty for running beyond where she is entitled to advance. Once the place is over, the baserunner's advance and/or score beyond what is allowed is nullified and the baserunner is returned. She is only in jeopardy when she is between bases. She is not in jeopardy merely because she is beyond where she is entitled to be. No baserunner is required to stand on home, neither is a 10U baserunner. I don't see how the second sentence in 8-4H-1 can be construed to mean that. A 10U baserunner who advances home when she is not entitled to advance home is not abandoning her base; she is advancing farther than the rules allow.
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Tom
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 07:12am
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Re: Question???
Quote:
Tom covered most of you questions. I would just like to add that at no point did anyone suggest a suspension of the rules, it's just that there are no rules requiring the runner who has scored as in this scenario to return in a certain manner as it would occur during a dead ball period by rule. BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 07:20pm
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Mike
BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base
Mike what about rule 8-7-U? Or are we talking about 2 different things? It still seems that if the runner is going back to 3rd, she has to go through home to get there. Just like if she missed 3rd base and crossed home, she has to touch home and go back to 3rd, in that order. Or am I missing something? Rick
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 08:14pm
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Rich wrote:
Quoting MIke "BTW, there is no such rule penalizing a runner for abandoning a base" ______________________________________________ "It still seems that if the runner is going back to 3rd, she has to go through home to get there. Just like if she missed 3rd base and crossed home, she has to touch home and go back to 3rd, in that order. Or am I missing something? ________________________________________________ What does that have to do with abandoning a base? Rule 8 Sec. 7 U. "When a runner abandons a base and enters the team area or field of play."Two different things. glen
__________________
glen _______________________________ "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." --Mark Twain.
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 09:33pm
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Re: Mike
Quote:
As far as retouching home, why would the runner bother? The umpire is not going to return the runner to 3B until the ball is dead. The runner didn't miss a base or leave a base early. Nor did the runner to anything illegal. And before you go there, the runner advancing farther than allowed is not forbidden or illegal. Retaining those bases just isn't permitted.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
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Wed Sep 10, 2003, 09:56pm
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OK, I'm missing something. In the original post, Question 5 says the runner goes into the dugout.
Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling? This is what I was basing the question I had on. I agree the runner has done nothing illegal by advancing to a base she can't have. BUT if she or the coach realizes the mistake and "retreats" to 3rd base, I still think she's gotta retrace her steps, meaning she has to go through home. I agree with your statement if the umpire tells her to go back to 3rd. There is no reason to retrace the steps. Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more. Rick
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