Lineup Mgt

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Yes, please accept any sub report that can happen right away.

Those that say not to accept subs who don't bat/field immediately must have trouble with injury/DQ replacements.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Double Ugh. However, I wouldn't take the on-deck batter as a sub if, for example, there are two out. There are other examples.

[MD Longhorn]

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game. Someone said "barring injury" ...

Batting order is 1-9, 1 is up. They have 1 available sub, number 10. Coach says 10 for 2 when he comes up and 10 is in the ODC. 1 hits a double and breaks his leg sliding into 2nd.

If you took 10 as a sub for 2, we're done or playing shorthanded (Depending on the code). If you properly didn't, 10 is not currently in the game, and can go run for 1.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game.

I'm pretty sure that this quote is an argument for both positions here. Someone posted the ruling for NCAA that says that a sub can't be entered until they will actually play. I know of no such ruling for ASA or NFHS (which is scant evidence for their lack of existence.) Absent a ruling like the NCAA's, I would assume that projected subs means what it normally means, subs that will only be made in the future.
Suppose that a team is using a DP/Flex. And in the top half of the inning the home coach comes to you and says I want to put in 13 for my Flex and she's now going to bat for the DP. Are you really only taking half that change because the second half doesn't take effect?

[RKBUmp]

What I find interesting is every case play I have come across for projected substitutions always deals with trying to make 2 moves with the same player. Not one of them refers to taking multiple offensive substitutions.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

What I find interesting is every case play I have come across for projected substitutions always deals with trying to make 2 moves with the same player. Not one of them refers to taking multiple offensive substitutions.

I agree and I believe many are overthinking the whole thing.

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Doesn't make a difference if it is one player or eight, the coach can make whatever changes s/he please, but when they do, those changes are effective immediately. If the coach tries to involve the same player in two changes, you stop them and refuse to take the change. Tell the coach to give you the change when s/he wants it to become effective.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree and I believe many are overthinking the whole thing.

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Doesn't make a difference if it is one player or eight, the coach can make whatever changes s/he please, but when they do, those changes are effective immediately. If the coach tries to involve the same player in two changes, you stop them and refuse to take the change. Tell the coach to give you the change when s/he wants it to become effective.

ditto

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree and I believe many are overthinking the whole thing.

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Doesn't make a difference if it is one player or eight, the coach can make whatever changes s/he please, but when they do, those changes are effective immediately. If the coach tries to involve the same player in two changes, you stop them and refuse to take the change. Tell the coach to give you the change when s/he wants it to become effective.

Logically speaking, I agree with that philosophy. However, I've posed this at both ASA and NFHS clinics and was told in no uncertain terms not to do it that way.

I've mentioned before that I was dinged on an NFHS evaluation for taking a sub for the second batter due up that inning.

I believe that if the coach tells me that Sally is going in for Sue and isn't due up until the 7th batter of the upcoming inning, that that change should be legitimate. But I've been told not to do that.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Tomorrow, when a coach tells me "17 for 10, in the #2 spot", I am going to have to hold back a huge goofy grin and try not to think about this post.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I agree and I believe many are overthinking the whole thing.

It isn't that hard. When the coach gives you a change, that change is effective then. Immediately. Not when they come to bat, go into the field, take a trip to the head, but NOW.

Doesn't make a difference if it is one player or eight, the coach can make whatever changes s/he please, but when they do, those changes are effective immediately. If the coach tries to involve the same player in two changes, you stop them and refuse to take the change. Tell the coach to give you the change when s/he wants it to become effective.

You might want to inform your clinicians of this... as they (ASA) have not been teaching it this way.

The funny thing is ... I've seen clinicians say you should take a sub on a batter that is sure to come up this inning (batting 1st, 2nd, 3rd at the beginning of a new half inning, for example) but not one that may or may not bat this inning (4th batter of a fresh inning ... or 2nd batter up with 1 out and a runner on, for example)... yet other clinicians simply say the sub must be the NEXT batter and the next batter only.

But none of the ASA clinics I've attended to have said you should take, as Mike suggests, 8 subs and put them all in right then.