Lineup Mgt

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Big argument on another board. I believe the final general consensus was you cannot accept offensive substitutions until they are actually coming up to bat or entering for another runner. My understanding was this was also a big topic of discussion at asa uic national clinic and they came to same determination.

Which to me is tantamount to not accepting the starting lineup except the first batter.
Maybe someone who was at that clinic will explain the irrationality.

A projected substitution is one that can not happen right then, like a re-entry later, or a pinch hitter for a player still on defense.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Which to me is tantamount to not accepting the starting lineup except the first batter.

Well, obviously that argument doesn't hold water, because the rules require the starting lineup to be exchanged at the plate conference.

[RKBUmp]

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Oh well, so much for logic.

[RKBUmp]

InI'm of the opinion it is no different than the coach handing in the lineup at the start of the game. Once it is accepted he has made his choice and substitution rules apply. How is it any different if he wants to change all 9 of his lineup on offense? If the coach chooses to make those changes and then gets burned because of an injury or whatever that is the coaches problem. And, every example I can find in any associations case book with regard to "protracted" substitutions always involve trying to make 2 moves with the same player, ie 3 for 4 at bat but 4 will reenter on defense.

But, I call what I'm told to call so if they want us to only accept a single offensive sub as they come to bat so be it.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Yes, please accept any sub report that can happen right away.

Those that say not to accept subs who don't bat/field immediately must have trouble with injury/DQ replacements.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Double Ugh. However, I wouldn't take the on-deck batter as a sub if, for example, there are two out. There are other examples.

[MD Longhorn]

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game. Someone said "barring injury" ...

Batting order is 1-9, 1 is up. They have 1 available sub, number 10. Coach says 10 for 2 when he comes up and 10 is in the ODC. 1 hits a double and breaks his leg sliding into 2nd.

If you took 10 as a sub for 2, we're done or playing shorthanded (Depending on the code). If you properly didn't, 10 is not currently in the game, and can go run for 1.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game.

I'm pretty sure that this quote is an argument for both positions here. Someone posted the ruling for NCAA that says that a sub can't be entered until they will actually play. I know of no such ruling for ASA or NFHS (which is scant evidence for their lack of existence.) Absent a ruling like the NCAA's, I would assume that projected subs means what it normally means, subs that will only be made in the future.
Suppose that a team is using a DP/Flex. And in the top half of the inning the home coach comes to you and says I want to put in 13 for my Flex and she's now going to bat for the DP. Are you really only taking half that change because the second half doesn't take effect?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, obviously that argument doesn't hold water, because the rules require the starting lineup to be exchanged at the plate conference.

You are always perceptive, or at least humorous. Is the proper emoticon for your post ""?