Lineup Mgt

[jmkupka]

NCAA 8.5.1.2-Projected substitutions and re-entries are not allowed.

At the start of the inning, OC tells me she will be putting subs in for her 2nd and 3rd batters.
I can accept these changes immediately, but I should advise OC that, at this point, they are official subs, and if she changes her mind, it'll be a re-entry (if the original players were starters).

This is not considered a projected sub, correct?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

NCAA 8.5.1.2-Projected substitutions and re-entries are not allowed.

At the start of the inning, OC tells me she will be putting subs in for her 2nd and 3rd batters.
I can accept these changes immediately, but I should advise OC that, at this point, they are official subs, and if she changes her mind, it'll be a re-entry (if the original players were starters).

This is not considered a projected sub, correct?

As long as the subs are now in the lineup, with or without your above advice, legit subs, not projected.

[RKBUmp]

Big argument on another board. I believe the final general consensus was you cannot accept offensive substitutions until they are actually coming up to bat or entering for another runner. My understanding was this was also a big topic of discussion at asa uic national clinic and they came to same determination.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Big argument on another board. I believe the final general consensus was you cannot accept offensive substitutions until they are actually coming up to bat or entering for another runner. My understanding was this was also a big topic of discussion at asa uic national clinic and they came to same determination.

Which to me is tantamount to not accepting the starting lineup except the first batter.
Maybe someone who was at that clinic will explain the irrationality.

A projected substitution is one that can not happen right then, like a re-entry later, or a pinch hitter for a player still on defense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Big argument on another board. I believe the final general consensus was you cannot accept offensive substitutions until they are actually coming up to bat or entering for another runner. My understanding was this was also a big topic of discussion at asa uic national clinic and they came to same determination.

I don't understand how that could even become a discussion at the UIC clinic.

It has never been acceptable to take projected changes. When someone tries, the immediate and consistent response is, "Coach, not now, tell me when the change actually occurs".

Only once did a coach ever insist and then got pissed because of all his BS, one of his players lost the ability to re-enter.

Some believe refusing projected changes is anal, but AFAIC, it is preventive umpiring that protects all parties involved.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

NCAA 8.5.1.2-Projected substitutions and re-entries are not allowed.

At the start of the inning, OC tells me she will be putting subs in for her 2nd and 3rd batters.
I can accept these changes immediately, but I should advise OC that, at this point, they are official subs, and if she changes her mind, it'll be a re-entry (if the original players were starters).

This is not considered a projected sub, correct?

That is not, and has never been considered a projected sub. The coach can make as many subs as they choose at one time, be it on defense or offense; and those subs become effective when accepted (in NCAA when also reported to official scorer and the opposing coach).

I cannot think of any valid reason to make a coach who intends two or more subs, now, to not accept those changes, now. The subs are now in the game, not projected (some time in the future), whether they run now, come to bat now, or later. You mark them all now, you report them all now; they are in the lineup now.

A different example; suppose coach subs S1 to run for the #26, the starting DP on base. At the end of the inning, coach reports to re-enter #26, so he/she doesn't forget to do that when #26 comes back up to bat later. Is anyone saying you cannot accept that re-entry? You are going to make the coach wait until that position comes back up the next time? Is it (should it be??) different if the DP is playing defense at that point?? That isn't projected, #26 is back in the lineup, whether she plays defense now or not.

Projected, as the rule is intended, is to stop the coach from saying S1 is running for #26, and I will re-enter #26 at the end of the inning. THAT is projected, (and it doesn't answer what is intended if they bat around completely and that position comes back up that inning) and "Coach, be sure you tell me that when that happens, because I cannot accept it now."

I accept, and have always accepted, multiple changes at one time. It is the coach's responsibility to know and understand that the change is effective when the rule says it is (accepted versus reported), not for me to refuse to accept a legal lineup change because that position isn't up to bat.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Which to me is tantamount to not accepting the starting lineup except the first batter.

Well, obviously that argument doesn't hold water, because the rules require the starting lineup to be exchanged at the plate conference.

[RKBUmp]

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Oh well, so much for logic.

[RKBUmp]

InI'm of the opinion it is no different than the coach handing in the lineup at the start of the game. Once it is accepted he has made his choice and substitution rules apply. How is it any different if he wants to change all 9 of his lineup on offense? If the coach chooses to make those changes and then gets burned because of an injury or whatever that is the coaches problem. And, every example I can find in any associations case book with regard to "protracted" substitutions always involve trying to make 2 moves with the same player, ie 3 for 4 at bat but 4 will reenter on defense.

But, I call what I'm told to call so if they want us to only accept a single offensive sub as they come to bat so be it.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

This is the ruling for NCAA posted on the forum I was talking about. Based on this, the umpire cannot take any offensive substitutions other than the player immediately coming to bat.

Here's the NCAA ruling: "Prior to the start of a half inning, the offensive coach reports two line-up changes to the plate umpire- the leadoff batter in the inning will now be #11 for #1 and the on-deck batter will be #12 for #2. RULING: The umpire should accept the reported change for the batter but the projected substitution for the on-deck batter is not allowed until #11 completes her turn at bat. Because any offensive player may occupy the on-deck circle, it is not considered a position in the line-up for which substitutions are accepted. That is to say, to be able to be reported, a substitute must immediately enter the game on offense or in a defensive position."

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, obviously that argument doesn't hold water, because the rules require the starting lineup to be exchanged at the plate conference.

You are always perceptive, or at least humorous. Is the proper emoticon for your post ""?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Yes, please accept any sub report that can happen right away.

Those that say not to accept subs who don't bat/field immediately must have trouble with injury/DQ replacements.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Ugh. I suppose this will come back to burn me some day, but I've never considered the lead-off, on-deck, or in-the-hole batters as projected subs. Barring an injury or their ejection from the on-deck circle, they will bat that inning. #4 batter, that's a projection and I don't take it. Future re-entries, same deal.

Looks like I may need to change how I've been doing that.

Double Ugh. However, I wouldn't take the on-deck batter as a sub if, for example, there are two out. There are other examples.

[MD Longhorn]

Do as we're told. Don't take the sub until they are actually entering the game. Someone said "barring injury" ...

Batting order is 1-9, 1 is up. They have 1 available sub, number 10. Coach says 10 for 2 when he comes up and 10 is in the ODC. 1 hits a double and breaks his leg sliding into 2nd.

If you took 10 as a sub for 2, we're done or playing shorthanded (Depending on the code). If you properly didn't, 10 is not currently in the game, and can go run for 1.