NFHS: Situations from Tonight & Rules Support?

[teebob21]

As shown by the multiple Fed threads at the top of this forum, the NFHS rule book is a pain in the butt. High school is the sanction I work the least, and accordingly am least confident in my rules knowledge. Tonight's scrimmage proved it as I made several calls that seemed right to me but the coaches "had never heard of that" etc, etc... Thus I turn to you guys.

Bat checks: Team A has one bat that is otherwise legal, but the grip wrapping has come loose from the handle in several places. It is still one continuous wrap, but it looks like a safety issue (BR getting a finger caught in the grip). I wanted to toss the bat, but my partner was the evaluator and said it was fine. Rule book for NFHS offered no help with a loose grip. The bat is illegal in ASA (grip not permanently attached, 3-1D).

Umpire "obstruction": R1/R2 on 1B/2B. Base hit to left field; my partner and R2 collide and both fall to the ground. Play is made at 3B for the force out. Partner awards runner 3B. Intuitively, I have an out (umpires are part of the field/we are dirt), but I cannot find rule support for this situation either way. I had to paraphrase 10-2-3g (decision on points not covered by rules) to get the defensive coach back in his dugout.

Pitching preliminaries: Pitcher brings her hands together immediately (NOT simultaneously) after stepping on the pitchers plate. Illegal pitch. Coach knows his rulebook and argues that she simulates taking the signal before bringing hands together and there is no minimum amount of time defined. This is a valid argument (maybe), but I rejected it. Good call?

Runners leaving bases during a defensive timeout: Catcher calls for time to talk to pitcher with bases loaded; runners head in to talk to coach. I stop them, send them back to the bag, and ask DHC if she would like a charged offensive conference. I'm thinking this was preventative umpiring. Coach claims she can have the free conference during a timeout. I say no. Fed rule book again not much help; ASA also unclear...this is a charged conference in NCAA.

At least I got a few right tonight:

Obstruction at 1b: Base hit to center, BR is obstructed on the way into 1B by F3. I give the signal and the verbal as she runs though the bag and rounds it late. She begins returning to 1B as the ball comes back to the infield. Coach sends her to 2B where she is tagged out 20 feet from the bag. Offensive coach unhappy: she claims "You can't ever be obstructed and be safe on the same play! That's impossible!"

Batter claims hit by pitch, I call strike: Pitch comes in and hits the low inside zone. I call strike 1 and batter heads to first, saying it hit her. I tell her I didn't see it that way. Coach comes out and wants the batter to get 1B. (I saw the catcher misplay it and drop it, which was actually surprising despite the level of play. Maybe it did touch her...) I tell her I judged the pitch a strike, and even if it did in fact brush the batter's leg and I missed it, it's still a dead ball strike. Same coach as before claims "You can't get hit with a strike! That's impossible!"

[RKBUmp]

Bat check, was any of the handle showing through the loose tape? I always make them fix loose grip wrapping.

Obstruction, as you stated no such thing as umpire obstruction. Shame on umpire for being in the way, but the out stands.

Illegal pitch, coach can argue all he wants, the rule book says the pitcher must take position with the hands separated, and while separated simulate taking a signal. If you judge the hands coming together is immediate, then it is an illegal pitch.

Runners leaving bases during time out, you are applying NCAA rule to high school ball. Nothing restricts the runners to their bases during a time out. As long as they are ready to play at end of time it is fine.

Obstruction at 1st, if you had her obstructed prior to 1st base, good call. If she was obstructed while rounding 1st, she is protected between 1st and 2nd. If tagged out she should have been awarded the base she would have reached absent the obstruction.

HBP strike, if it caught the zone it is a strike. If it hit her after that it is a dead ball strike.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Illegal pitch, coach can argue all he wants, the rule book says the pitcher must take position with the hands separated, and while separated simulate taking a signal. If you judge the hands coming together is immediate, then it is an illegal pitch.

If she steps on with her hands separated and brings them together how do you know she didn't take a signal while bringing them together? Local color might dictate how you call this, but unless she was rushing through the pitch I'm a little skeptical about judging from this that she didn't simulate taking a signal.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

HBP strike, if it caught the zone it is a strike. If it hit her after that it is a dead ball strike.

I don't think this is right. If a pitch goes through the strike zone and then hits a batter outside the strike zone (with no swing) it's a HBP. ASA 2005 references since that's the E-copy I have:
Rule 7-6-A-2. The batter is out if touched by a third strike "while it is in the strike zone".
Rule 7-4-G. A strike is called for each pitched ball swung at and missed that touches the runner.
Rule 7-4-I. A strike is called when the ball hits the batter in the strike zone.

The only real conflict is 7-4-A. A strike is called for each legally pitched ball entering the strike zone. But if you want that to be a conflict, you'd have the same problem with a ball that was hit after being in the strike zone.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

If she steps on with her hands separated and brings them together how do you know she didn't take a signal while bringing them together? Local color might dictate how you call this, but unless she was rushing through the pitch I'm a little skeptical about judging from this that she didn't simulate taking a signal.



I don't think this is right. If a pitch goes through the strike zone and then hits a batter outside the strike zone (with no swing) it's a HBP. ASA 2005 references since that's the E-copy I have:
Rule 7-6-A-2. The batter is out if touched by a third strike "while it is in the strike zone".
Rule 7-4-G. A strike is called for each pitched ball swung at and missed that touches the runner.
Rule 7-4-I. A strike is called when the ball hits the batter in the strike zone.

The only real conflict is 7-4-A. A strike is called for each legally pitched ball entering the strike zone. But if you want that to be a conflict, you'd have the same problem with a ball that was hit after being in the strike zone.

If the pitcher is stepping on and immediately brings the hands together, it is an illegal pitch and the case play in the NFHS manual says the same. If the hands are brought together immediately after stepping into position, it is an illegal pitch.

A ball that touches any portion of the strike zone is a strike. You cannot have an awarded 1st base(edited) hit by pitch strike.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

A ball that touches any portion of the strike zone is a strike. You cannot have a hit by pitch strike.

First of all, what you wrote in the first sentence doesn't match what you wrote in the second sentence. The second sentence is just so wrong that you obviously didn't mean it. As to the first sentence, would you care to respond to the citations?

[RKBUmp]

Edited. I meant a batter awarded 1st base on a hit by pitch strike.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Edited. I meant a batter awarded 1st base on a hit by pitch strike.

K, now it's clear what you meant. And we definitely agree on that. What we disagree on is whether a pitch that passes through the strike zone and then strikes the batter who is not in the strike zone is a strike. I've cited the rules I believe are relevant above.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Bat check, was any of the handle showing through the loose tape? I always make them fix loose grip wrapping.

There was a lot of adhesive stuck to the handle. I think we could see handle showing.

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Runners leaving bases during time out, you are applying NCAA rule to high school ball. Nothing restricts the runners to their bases during a time out. As long as they are ready to play at end of time it is fine.

I suspected this might be the case. Now I know for next time.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by youngump

K, now it's clear what you meant. And we definitely agree on that. What we disagree on is whether a pitch that passes through the strike zone and then strikes the batter who is not in the strike zone is a strike. I've cited the rules I believe are relevant above.

ART. 2 . . . A batter is awarded first base when:
b. (F.P.) a pitched ball is entirely within the batter’s box and it strikes the batter or her clothing. No attempt to avoid being hit by the pitch is required. However, the batter may not obviously try to get hit by the pitch.


[youngump]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

ART. 2 . . . A batter is awarded first base when:
b. (F.P.) a pitched ball is entirely within the batter’s box and it strikes the batter or her clothing. No attempt to avoid being hit by the pitch is required. However, the batter may not obviously try to get hit by the pitch.


I'm on your side here but I think the rules are a little more ambiguous than you're giving the other side credit for. Here's the problem almost every rule in those sections doesn't make exceptions for another listed thing happening. In particular this rule doesn't say it doesn't apply if the batter swings but we know from another rule that it doesn't. Similarly the rule that says it's a strike if the ball passes through the strike zone doesn't have an exception for hitting the batter.
I don't realistically think they could make it any clearer without making it way too long.

[MD Longhorn]

If the obstruction before but near first base cause the runner to round wide, she was still obstructed between first and second, and should be protected.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If the obstruction before but near first base cause the runner to round wide, she was still obstructed between first and second, and should be protected.

Is that documented and is it because a BR can't go backward?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Is that documented and is it because a BR can't go backward?

I don't know where this might be written down and it has nothing to do with not being able to retreat (which is only to avoid a tag anyway). I judge player to be obstructed for the amount of time that they are immediately affected by the obstruction. So a player tripped on her way to first who lands before the bag is obstructed between home and 1st. A player tripped on her way to first who lands past the bag is obstructed between home and 1st and between 1st and 2nd.
If you don't judge it that way you have quite the problem because the latter runner would otherwise be in advance of the base they would have reached absent the obstruction and not in the segment they were obstructed in which means they could be put out. I see it the same way for a player rounding a base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by youngump

I don't know where this might be written down and it has nothing to do with not being able to retreat (which is only to avoid a tag anyway).

I KNOW about the BR tag play INT; trying to see why before 1st is different than other bases.

Originally Posted by youngump

I judge player to be obstructed for the amount of time that they are immediately affected by the obstruction. So a player tripped on her way to first who lands before the bag is obstructed between home and 1st. A player tripped on her way to first who lands past the bag is obstructed between home and 1st and between 1st and 2nd.
If you don't judge it that way you have quite the problem because the latter runner would otherwise be in advance of the base they would have reached absent the obstruction and not in the segment they were obstructed in which means they could be put out. I see it the same way for a player rounding a base.

Why not by where the OBS occurs?

A runner rounding a base is part of continuing, once they have reached it (i.e. at the base), so the OBS can apply to the next "between".

I don't see " the latter runner would otherwise be in advance of the base they would have reached absent the obstruction and not in the segment they were obstructed in which means they could be put out" as a problem.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I KNOW about the BR tag play INT; trying to see why before 1st is different than other bases.

It's not different because it happened at first. His statement could just as easily have been if the Runner is obstructed rounding 2B but in the OP the runner was at 1st.

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I don't see " the latter runner would otherwise be in advance of the base they would have reached absent the obstruction and not in the segment they were obstructed in which means they could be put out" as a problem.

Because it would encourage the first baseman to take out the runner while the 2nd basemen took the throw for the tag. A good tackle before first base could leave the runner off the base easily long enough for the ball to come in and get the out.
(Even if you dealt with it with an ejection at the right time in the game it might be worth it.)