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Old Tue Sep 16, 2014, 09:31pm
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Flex bats NFHS rules

Here is a scenario I had.
Line-up is:
#01 - Suzy - F5
#02 - Sally - F8
#03 - Fran - F3
#04 - Jan - F7
#05 - Jill - DP
#06 - Deb - F2
#07 - Ruth - F4
#08 - Rita - F9
#09 - Mandy - F6
-----
#10 - Becky - F1/Flex

First inning is #01 walks, #02 sac bunts, #03 strikes out, and #04 flies out. Other team bats.

Second inning is #05 grounds out, #06 grounds out, and #07 strikes out. Other team bats.

Third inning is #08 strikes out, #09 grounds out, #10 flies out. (Yes--#10, the Flex, batted! The offense didn't attempt/announce any substitution. The defense did not appeal. The umpire didn't notice.) Other team bats.

Fourth inning started with #01 getting a base hit. Immediately, the defense appealed batting out of order.

What is the correct ruling?
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Old Tue Sep 16, 2014, 10:27pm
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Suzy is removed from the bases, Sally is out, and Fran is next to bat.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:07am
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NFHS states that putting the Flex in for anyone BUT the DP is an illegal substitution. Also that illegal substitution supersedes batting out of order. I believe when the Flex batted, it was for the #1 batter, which was an iilegal substitution, not a batting out of order. Just my opinion. Dave
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:08am
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And Becky restricted to bench for rest of game for being an illegal substitute?

3-6-g Does not mention "before the next pitch".

4-2 note: The penalty for illegal substitution takes precedence over the batting-out-of-order penalty.

Could this be considered as 2 different infractions?

Illegal sub / BOO in the 3rd inning, but the next pitch negates the BOO.
Then in the 4th inning you again have BOO.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 07:44am
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The way I am reading it is once you have an illegal substitution, you can no longer have a batting out of order on this particular episode. Dave
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 08:42am
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How do you penalize for an illegal substitute an inning after the fact? At the time the infraction was brought to the umpires attention all you have is BOO.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
How do you penalize for an illegal substitute an inning after the fact? At the time the infraction was brought to the umpires attention all you have is BOO.
An illegal substitute can discovered by either team or an umpire at any time in the game and be restricted to the dugout. The only thing that discovering before a pitch has been thrown does is nullify the play.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 10:09am
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And what proof do you have anything has been discovered other than the current BOO? An inning after the fact you have a coach who has brought you their score book indicating the flex had batted the previous inning. What do you do if the other teams score book doesn't show the flex batting?
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 11:03am
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What do we do in any case where there is a discrepancy in the score book? If there is an official score book, we use that, otherwise the home book is the official book. Should be fairly simple to find out if someone is an illegal sub. Dave

Last edited by shipwreck; Wed Sep 17, 2014 at 11:06am.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 12:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
And what proof do you have anything has been discovered other than the current BOO? An inning after the fact you have a coach who has brought you their score book indicating the flex had batted the previous inning. What do you do if the other teams score book doesn't show the flex batting?
I think it is assumed that when one posts a question, the facts of the question are true. The OP of a thread shouldn't have to prove to others that his facts are correct. Given the facts laid out by the OP, we should answer the questions posted.

Per both NFHS and ASA, any time the Flex bats without going into the DP slot, it's an illegal sub, and not BOO. Penalize accordingly.

In this case, Flex illegally batted for B1. Then we have the additional issue of B1 batting out of turn when B2 was due up. Again, penalize accordingly.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shipwreck View Post
An illegal substitute can discovered by either team or an umpire at any time in the game and be restricted to the dugout. The only thing that discovering before a pitch has been thrown does is nullify the play.
And where do you get this conclusion from? The copy of the rulebook I have at work is 2011, but has 3-4-2 changed? Illegal substitutes may be discovered only while illegally in the game.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:21pm
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It says an illegal offensive player may be discovered after she scores. This can mean while sitting in the dugout later in the game, correct? Nothing is said about a certain time frame that this is allowed. Dave
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I think it is assumed that when one posts a question, the facts of the question are true. The OP of a thread shouldn't have to prove to others that his facts are correct. Given the facts laid out by the OP, we should answer the questions posted.

Per both NFHS and ASA, any time the Flex bats without going into the DP slot, it's an illegal sub, and not BOO. Penalize accordingly.

In this case, Flex illegally batted for B1. Then we have the additional issue of B1 batting out of turn when B2 was due up. Again, penalize accordingly.
MD, I like your explanation. So when NFHS says that illegal substitution supersedes BOO, it is talking about the illegal sub player, not the batter who follows the illegal sub. So as you say, the batter (B1) who follows the illegal sub would be out of order. So if appealed correctly, B2 would be declared out and B3 would be up? Dave
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:33pm
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NFHS 3-4-2 says the infraction must be discovered before the next pitch, or, on a game ending play, before the infielders and/or umpires have left the diamond.
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Old Wed Sep 17, 2014, 02:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
NFHS 3-4-2 says the infraction must be discovered before the next pitch, or, on a game ending play, before the infielders and/or umpires have left the diamond.
Read 3-4-2c It says AFTER a pitch she is still an illegal sub, just that the play stands. So the infraction does not have to be detected before the next pitch. Dave
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