New partner

[Manny A]

I'm confused by your question. This IS a judgment call. You're judging whether or not F3 maintained control of the ball at first base. If you're certain that F3 did control the ball, why didn't you just tell your partner just that?

[jmkupka]

My point to him was, she had control of the thrown ball, with foot on the bag, before the runner got there. Bobbling a transfer had ZERO to do with the criteria needed for an out.

When you bring your partner in to ask for his input, have a precise question for him. Did she hold the bag? Did you see daylight between the runner and the sweep tag?

His precise question was a non-factor in whether the out was made.

I did tell him I had control at the time of the out (and he agreed), but he also wanted a controlled transfer. Not relevant.

Not a judgement at that point, but a rule interp.

Sorry if I just said the same thing 5 times...

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

When you bring your partner in to ask for his input, have a precise question for him. Did she hold the bag? Did you see daylight between the runner and the sweep tag?

Okay, that is what I ask of the coach who comes to me with a concern over my call. I don't require the same thing from my partner! We're a team out there, and we need to be able to discuss the whole play to get the call right. Making those kinds of demands for "precise questions" with nothing else that you consider superfluous is a short road to losing your partner's desire to work with you, IMHO.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Okay, that is what I ask of the coach who comes to me with a concern over my call. I don't require the same thing from my partner! We're a team out there, and we need to be able to discuss the whole play to get the call right. Making those kinds of demands for "precise questions" with nothing else that you consider superfluous is a short road to losing your partner's desire to work with you, IMHO.

I disagree. You should never go to your partner if you don't have a specific question in mind. "What did you see?" is the worst question ever, and it makes me cringe when my partner asks that.

If coach gets him to come to me, it should be because of something specific - therefore the question to us should be specific as well.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I disagree. You should never go to your partner if you don't have a specific question in mind. "What did you see?" is the worst question ever, and it makes me cringe when my partner asks that.

Yes, those make me cringe as well. But I will respond with, "What did the coach want you to get help with?" and not with, "What is your precise question?"

I guess I just took jmkupka's tone wrong (problem with internet discussion boards). I read it as, "Don't come to me unless you have a precise question; othewise, go back to your position." My point was we should be a little more forgiving when we talk to each other about a play, and not treat each other like coaches.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm confused by your question. This IS a judgment call. You're judging whether or not F3 maintained control of the ball at first base. If you're certain that F3 did control the ball, why didn't you just tell your partner just that?

Or is he trying to say the rule is maintaining control throughout the play, not just at the time of the touch/tag?

[MD Longhorn]

You should have simply stuck with "She had control at the time of the out." And if he asked, "did she bobble on the transfer", say, "that's not relevant to this play but I did not see that, I was moving to my possible play at third after the out was secured at first"... or maybe something less wordy.

But as to your actual question, YES, you (if you are UIC, and not simply PU) have the responsibility to fix a known mistaken rule interpretation. If you don't have a designated UIC or Crew Chief (not all areas do) for the game, your rules argument is simply your interp against his ... and while we all know, here, that your interp is right --- on the field how do you know who is right when 2 people simply have 2 differing interpretations of a rule (one is right, one is wrong ... but the PU is not right by definition).

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Or is he trying to say the rule is maintaining control throughout the play, not just at the time of the touch/tag?

Which reminds me, saw this play recently.
R running from 1st, fly ball to RF, caught. F9 throws to 1st in time for the tag up out.
Tag made, runner's slide carries her into F3, ball comes out when they fall.
Out or safe.

[RKBUmp]

Out

[MD Longhorn]

Out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Which reminds me, saw this play recently.
R running from 1st, fly ball to RF, caught. F9 throws to 1st in time for the tag up out.
Tag made, runner's slide carries her into F3, ball comes out when they fall.
Out or safe.

You didn't say, but did F3 tag the runner or the base?

The question you need to answer to yourself: Did F3 have control of the ball in her hand/glove when she made the tag? If so, then you have an out.

In your play, if F3 tagged the runner, and then the ball popped out on the fall, you could judge that F3 never had control of the ball at the time of the tag. It really depends how quickly things took place (tag, contact, fall, ball comes loose). Any discernable time between the tag and when the ball popped out of the glove, I would judge she controlled it during the tag.

[jmkupka]

MD, completely agree.

Working a men's FP game with a brick backstop, strike 3 went straight past F2 & ricocheted back to batter's foot, bouncing into the IF, before B/R knew it got past F2. No int.

in the OP, B/R was aware of her situation, & got tangled up with the ball as she passed from RH BB, across the plate, into LH BB...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

in the OP, B/R was aware of her situation, & got tangled up with the ball as she passed from RH BB, across the plate, into LH BB...

I would say that's enough extra information that I'd rule INT as well.

[CecilOne]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
Which reminds me, saw this play recently.
R running from 1st, fly ball to RF, caught. F9 throws to 1st in time for the tag up out.
Tag made, runner's slide carries her into F3, ball comes out when they fall.
Out or safe.

Originally Posted by Manny A

You didn't say, but did F3 tag the runner or the base?

The question you need to answer to yourself: Did F3 have control of the ball in her hand/glove when she made the tag? If so, then you have an out.

In your play, if F3 tagged the runner, and then the ball popped out on the fall, you could judge that F3 never had control of the ball at the time of the tag. It really depends how quickly things took place (tag, contact, fall, ball comes loose). Any discernable time between the tag and when the ball popped out of the glove, I would judge she controlled it during the tag.

Visible to the BU (straightlined by runner), tagged the runner, but probably both.

The issue became whether control for the runner tag was sufficient or whether the fielder had to maintain control for the duration of the play (runner's slide carries her into F3, ball comes out when they fall).

This was not a case of the fielder trying to throw, IOW not losing it on "the transfer".

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The issue became whether control for the runner tag was sufficient or whether the fielder had to maintain control for the duration of the play (runner's slide carries her into F3, ball comes out when they fall).

The definition of Tag in most rule sets simply requires the fielder to securely hold the ball in the hand or glove while touching the runner or the base. There is no requirement to maintain the ball in the hand or glove and demonstrate a voluntary and intentional release after the tag.

Where it gets tricky is when the ball comes out of the hand or glove very shortly after the tag. If it happens nearly simultaneously, then you could judge that the fielder didn't securely hold the ball at the moment of the tag. But the bigger the gap in time between the tag and the drop, the more convincing it is to state the ball was securely held when the tag took place.