Batter swings..hits hands...ball in fair territory

[illiniwek8]

Ok.....this situation....batter swings at pitch...ball hits his hands as he swings and the ball dribbles to the pitcher who picks up the ball and fires to first...the batter is running to first thinking that he needs to......my call is DEAD BALL....strike....(FED rules).....this brings me to my next question...assuming that I am right so far.....what if this is strike three on the batter...and there are 2 outs......the batter cannot advance..because I have called a dead ball.....right.....so....is this strike three? It is not a foul ball...didn't hit the bat....and the catcher did not catch the strike three. I am assuming this is strike 3 he is out..........please weigh in.......also.......


FED Rules:

I am on the bases (2-man) with runners on first and second...I am in "C". Catcher.....after recieving the pitch makes a snap throw to 1st base.....I am straightlined and the firstbaseman has blocked my view of the runner on first attempting to dive back into the bag......I (without making a call) point to the UIC for his judgement...he without hesitation calls the runner out....the coach tells me that it was my call and I cannot do that......tells me that I have to make a call safe or out.......

Please help me out here......were my mechanics wrong? What should I have done differently if so? Thanks for your help/advise.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by illiniwek8

Ok.....this situation....batter swings at pitch...ball hits his hands as he swings and the ball dribbles to the pitcher who picks up the ball and fires to first...the batter is running to first thinking that he needs to......my call is DEAD BALL....strike....(FED rules).....this brings me to my next question...assuming that I am right so far.....what if this is strike three on the batter...and there are 2 outs......the batter cannot advance..because I have called a dead ball.....right.....so....is this strike three? It is not a foul ball...didn't hit the bat....and the catcher did not catch the strike three. I am assuming this is strike 3 he is out..........please weigh in.......also.......

FED Rules:

I am on the bases (2-man) with runners on first and second...I am in "C". Catcher.....after recieving the pitch makes a snap throw to 1st base.....I am straightlined and the firstbaseman has blocked my view of the runner on first attempting to dive back into the bag......I (without making a call) point to the UIC for his judgement...he without hesitation calls the runner out....the coach tells me that it was my call and I cannot do that......tells me that I have to make a call safe or out.......

Please help me out here......were my mechanics wrong? What should I have done differently if so? Thanks for your help/advise.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH HHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All rules:

Call time. Pitch is a deadball strike. If it's strike three, it's strike three. If it's the third out, it's the third out.

THE HANDS ARE NOT PART OF THE BAT.

[LMan]

"Time!"

"Yes, he did!" *point at batter w left hand*

*strike three signal of your choice*

Half-inning over.

[UmpJM]

illiniwek,

The batter does not ever become a runner on a third strike not caught which hits him - unless his opportunity to hit the pitch was interfered with (obstructed in FED) by a member of the defense. Except in FED, there's a nanosecond somewhere in there where he does become a batter-runner, but it's for so short a period that he doesn't even have time to think about starting to run.

As to your second question, the proper mechanic in this situation is to tell the coach to "Fu*k Off!"

Wait a second. That doesn't really sound very courteous, does it?

Actually, what you want to do is take a step or two forward to clear your sight lines and pivot toward 1B and set for the tag. If your view of the play is still obstructed, you may go to your partner and ask, "Bill, Do you have a tag?" He should counter with something along the lines of "That's a tag!" Upon which, YOU call the runner OUT!

The coach has absolutely no business telling an umpire what call is or is not his or what he can and cannot do. It would be appropriate to inform him of this. Courteously, of course.

JM

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

illiniwek,

The batter does not ever become a runner on a third strike not caught which hits him - unless his opportunity to hit the pitch was interfered with (obstructed in FED) by a member of the defense. Except in FED, there's a nanosecond somewhere in there where he does become a batter-runner, but it's for so short a period that he doesn't even have time to think about starting to run.

As to your second question, the proper mechanic in this situation is to tell the coach to "Fu*k Off!"

Wait a second. That doesn't really sound very courteous, does it?

Actually, what you want to do is take a step or two forward to clear your sight lines and pivot toward 1B and set for the tag. If your view of the play is still obstructed, you may go to your partner and ask, "Bill, Do you have a tag?" He should counter with something along the lines of "That's a tag!" Upon which, YOU call the runner OUT!

The coach has absolutely no business telling an umpire what call is or is not his or what he can and cannot do. It would be appropriate to inform him of this. Courteously, of course.

JM

How about this?

"Coach, I won't tell you when to bunt, please don't tell me how to umpire."

The use of the word "rat" is optional.

[illiniwek8]

So, If I get straightlined or whatever and don't get a good look at the play...it is ok for me to check with my partner.....I just have to consult..and once he gives me an indication.....then "I" make the call.......is it necessary to call time first before i ask? Thanks for all the insight by the way........

[UmpJM]

illiniwek8,

If I were you, I'd be more focused on what to do to not get "straightlined" or whatever might prevent you from seeing what you need to in order to make the call. It's always better to be in the position you need to be to make the call than to go to your partner for help.

But, sometimes stuff happens. So, if on the rare occasion, you don't see what you needed to, and you're pretty sure your partner had a better look, you may go to your partner for additional information - but it's still your call. So, yes, you make the call. No need to call time to do all of this.

JM

BTW, you getting any hassle from the PC police about that screen name?

[UmpJM]

Rich,

How about this?

"Coach, I won't tell you when to bunt, please don't tell me how to umpire."

Works for me. Not only courteous, but firm as well.

I was trying to come up with something clever about him getting his runner picked off by a snap throw from the catcher, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

On a more serious note, I've been reading a book titled "Verbal Judo" the last few days. It was recommended by a presenter during a "Handling Situations" session at a clinic my association put on earlier this year. While I question whether all of the author's points/theories are applicable to umpiring, I'm of the opinion that many of them are.

Anyway, it's got me thinking that a major contributor to "situations" arising in the first place, and not going especially well when they do arise, is a result of ineffective communications by the umpire(s). One chapter is titled, "The Greatest Speech You'll Ever Live to Regret". It's kind of got me thinking I don't want to make one of those while I'm umpiring. Having a natural tendency towards sarcasm, this is not always easy for me.

JM

[illiniwek8]

No PC Police just yet.....long live illiniwek8......he'll be back! Thanks for the info!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Rich,



Works for me. Not only courteous, but firm as well.

I was trying to come up with something clever about him getting his runner picked off by a snap throw from the catcher, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

On a more serious note, I've been reading a book titled "Verbal Judo" the last few days. It was recommended by a presenter during a "Handling Situations" session at a clinic my association put on earlier this year. While I question whether all of the author's points/theories are applicable to umpiring, I'm of the opinion that many of them are.

Anyway, it's got me thinking that a major contributor to "situations" arising in the first place, and not going especially well when they do arise, is a result of ineffective communications by the umpire(s). One chapter is titled, "The Greatest Speech You'll Ever Live to Regret". It's kind of got me thinking I don't want to make one of those while I'm umpiring. Having a natural tendency towards sarcasm, this is not always easy for me.

JM

JM,

Friend of mine espouses the five words or less theory. Theory is, more an umpire talks, the more problems he has. Just about any situation on the field can (and should) be described to the coach in five words or less:

Examples:

He started and stopped.

He lowered the shoulder.

Batter stepped over the plate.

etc.

Knowing what to say, saying it confidently without being an arrogant prick, and knowing the rules well enough to get from "batter stepped over the plate" to "that's interference, batter's out, runners return" are the keys.

Verbal judo, huh? I'll have to check that out.

[UmpJM]

Rich,

The "five words or less" theory makes an awful lot of sense to me, and I am working on becoming an effective practitioner.

So far this season (3 games) I've had exactly one "conversation" with a coach about a call I made during the game. I was working solo, and the F1 successfully picked off the R2 at 2B.

After I called him out, the offensive head coach (who had been coaching 1B) came trotting down to talk to me. I called "TIME!" (though he never requested it), removed my helmet, stepped out from behind the plate and waited for him.

Though he never said so, I believe he was displeased with my call. Our conversation went something like this.

Coach: (In an incredulous tone of voice) Where did he tag him?!?!?!

Me: On the arm.

Coach: (Less incredulous tone) How can you call that from back there?!?

Me: I had him out, Coach.

A brief moment of silence ensued and the coach returned to the box and we went back to baseball. No further incidents.

What I saw on the play was the runner was fooled by the pick-off, slipped on his initial attempt to return, the throw beat him back to the bag, and the F4 got a tag down on the ground as the R2 did a "reach slide" back into 2B. Whether the F4 actually physically tagged the runner or not, I have no idea. The coach may have had an angle where he clearly saw his runner evade the tag. From my vantage point he was out.

Now, a lot of things were going through my head that I might have liked to have said ("That's a $50 call Coach, you want that one, pay for two umpires." or "I know, why don't YOU take the plays on the bases & I'll just do strikes/balls and fair/foul?" or,,,,)

Anyway, I'm glad I resisted the urge.

The author of the book is a former English professor and a former Policeman. He developed his theories from his experiences as a cop and seeing how some cops seemed to naturally defuse tense situations while others turned innocuous situations into extremely tense, and sometimes violent, situations.

It's not especially well-written, but there are a lot of interesting ideas.

JM

[Rich Ives]

I was working solo

I think "Pay for more umpires" fits the 5 words of less criteria.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Rich,


Coach: (Less incredulous tone) How can you call that from back there?!?

JM

In my 20's, when I was even more of a smarta$$, I once answered that same question with:

"Like this, coach: (Giving the hammer sign) HE'S OUT!!!.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GarthB

In my 20's, when I was even more of a smarta$$, I once answered that same question with:

"Like this, coach: (Giving the hammer sign) HE'S OUT!!!.

Ten years ago I was working a Legion game in New Orleans. I was scheduled to work the bases and my partner (with history of heart problems) started having chest pains in the parking lot. We called for an ambulance and he insisted I stay and work the game alone.

I rode with him and didn't have my gear, so I gave the team two options. I'd call pitches from behind the mound or we'd go home. They were OK with me working from behind the mound.

Until.....4 innings or so in, a one hopper back to the plate and R3 (for some unknown reason) was off on the crack of the bat. Step, throw, tag, out.

And the third base coach went nuts and said the runner slide BEHIND the tag. Then the coach said I needed to hustle into position to see that.

That's when the coach got run. And I haven't worked alone since, come to think of it, except on the Little League diamond.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

How can you call that from back there?!?

"Because back here is where I am."