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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:39pm
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Home Run base running adventures

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, no out. B3 hits over-the-fence home run. R1 touches home as team comes out to celebrate at home plate. R2 rounds 3B, approaches home but joins the crowd in the 3B side batters box never crossing home. B3 comes around and touches home. R1 realizes that R2 never touched home and pushes R2 to home plate.

Now what?
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, no out. B3 hits over-the-fence home run. R1 touches home as team comes out to celebrate at home plate. R2 rounds 3B, approaches home but joins the crowd in the 3B side batters box never crossing home. B3 comes around and touches home. R1 realizes that R2 never touched home and pushes R2 to home plate.

Now what?
Wait for the appeal; absent that, you have no call.

Since B3 touched the plate, R2 cannot retouch. If R2 cannot retouch, there can be no call made for assisting the runner.
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:49pm
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What about B3 passing a runner?
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:56pm
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Originally Posted by bigsig View Post
What about B3 passing a runner?
I have actually seen that called. Runner on 1 batter hit a bomb and runner held up to make sure it cleared fence. Batter rounded 1st and passed the runner.
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:24pm
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Originally Posted by RKBUmp View Post
I have actually seen that called. Runner on 1 batter hit a bomb and runner held up to make sure it cleared fence. Batter rounded 1st and passed the runner.
That is a different situation. In that case, the call for passing a runner should be made.

Once a succeeding runner crosses the plate, you can not retouch, so there can be no violation for passing. This situation only can lead to an out if it appealed that the runner missed home plate.
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:43pm
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How is the situation different? If the runner never touched home plate and was standing short of the plate in the right handed batters box would not b3 have to pass them before touching the plate? The instant b3 passed the runner they would be out so how could a succeeding runner have scored?
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Old Sun Jun 01, 2014, 09:45pm
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Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Wait for the appeal; absent that, you have no call.

Since B3 touched the plate, R2 cannot retouch. If R2 cannot retouch, there can be no call made for assisting the runner.
But isn't B3 out immediately when she passes R2 who stopped short of home plate? So no succeeding runner has taken away R2s right to continue home.

Then B2 is assisted by R1 who is no longer a runner because she has scored.
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 08:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpireErnie View Post
But isn't B3 out immediately when she passes R2 who stopped short of home plate? So no succeeding runner has taken away R2s right to continue home.

Then B2 is assisted by R1 who is no longer a runner because she has scored.
Well, if the PU had made the call on B3 for passing R2 (which, I agree, should have been the case if R2 was still short of home), then likely R2 would realize she's still a runner and would have touched home on her own. You cannot wait until play ends and then make the out rulings in the sequence you propose.
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 08:37am
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B3 is out the moment she passes R2 - who, having not PASSED home plate, is still simply a runner between 3rd and home. At the time B3 is called out, R2 is still a live runner and may still touch home (and may be appealled if she never does so).
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 09:10am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
B3 is out the moment she passes R2 - who, having not PASSED home plate, is still simply a runner between 3rd and home. At the time B3 is called out, R2 is still a live runner and may still touch home (and may be appealed if she never does so).
And then is out if she is pushed (assisted) home?
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 02:11pm
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Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
And then is out if she is pushed (assisted) home?
Funny thing about the "physically assists" rule in softball. In ASA, the rule, 8-7-E, requires the assistance to happen while the ball is live. In the OP, the batter hit a home run. I cannot find anything in the rule or any RS dealing with a home run. So, in theory, you cannot have a violation here.

FED 8-6-5, meanwhile, makes no mention of the ball being live when the assistance takes place. However, it could be implied that it only applies during a live ball, because the Penalty for the violation is to leave the ball live and rule the assisted runner out.

NCAA 4.3.5 and 12.8.3 also limits physical assistance to runners "actively running the bases and the ball is in play."

So, would she or would she not be out if someone pushed her to home? Hmmm...
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 02:54pm
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Originally Posted by voiceoflg View Post
And then is out if she is pushed (assisted) home?
Of course not. I did not say that. On purpose.

Just out of curiosity, what would the logic be for wanting the rulebook to call a runner out for being pushed (assisted) while the ball is not live? It makes sense if the ball is live - assisting a runner helps them get somewhere quicker than they would have without the assistance, possibly altering a live play. But the speed at which the runner gets to where she's going is completely immaterial during a dead ball. The rule book does not call for this out - but I'm truly curious why one would want it to, or expect it to.
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 02:54pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
So, would she or would she not be out if someone pushed her to home? Hmmm...
I think you answered your own question before you asked it.
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Old Mon Jun 02, 2014, 08:32pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Of course not. I did not say that. On purpose.

Just out of curiosity, what would the logic be for wanting the rulebook to call a runner out for being pushed (assisted) while the ball is not live? It makes sense if the ball is live - assisting a runner helps them get somewhere quicker than they would have without the assistance, possibly altering a live play. But the speed at which the runner gets to where she's going is completely immaterial during a dead ball. The rule book does not call for this out - but I'm truly curious why one would want it to, or expect it to.
I was just trying to fully understand, not questioning you. I somewhat remember a softball game where a player hit a home run but was injured before rounding the bases. Defenders carried her around. I wasn't sure if this, like that one, was within the rules or not. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:36am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
I think you answered your own question before you asked it.
I realize that. But the lack of specificity in the FED rule (why leave out "while the ball is live" or "and the ball is in play" from the rule when ASA and NCAA include that language?) makes one wonder.

The rationale behind the rule is not just to penalize the offense when it does something physical that allows a runner to get somewhere quicker than if she had not been assisted. It also penalizes the offense when it physically helps a runner correct a mistake, such as on a missed base or on a failed tag-up. Those can happen during both live and dead ball situations.

I believe in baseball, the rule on physical assistance is not limited to live ball play. Since the FED rule doesn't specifically state it, it could be considered the same.
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