Base Running Question

[Justme]

Runner on 1st or 2nd (or both), ball hit to the outfield.

Has anyone ever seen a base runner going from 2nd base to 3rd base cut inside (around the cutout area or sooner) to shorten the running distance when he thought that the umpires were watching the ball instead of the base running?

If you have had this pulled on you what did you call?

[big]

Ummm.... Not sure what you mean here. The shortest distance from one base to another is a direct line right down the baseline. Are you talking abouot rounding 3rd where R1 would cut it short and miss 3rd? Help us out here.

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by Justme

Runner on 1st or 2nd (or both), ball hit to the outfield.

Has anyone ever seen a base runner going from 2nd base to 3rd base cut inside (around the cutout area or sooner) to shorten the running distance when he thought that the umpires were watching the ball instead of the base running?

If you have had this pulled on you what did you call?

I think what is being asked is if anyone has seen a baserunner advancing from 2nd to 3rd cut inside 3rd and miss the base on purpose (to shorten the distance to the plate) while the umpires (2 man system) were watching the ball hit to the outfield.
I observed this while watching my son's HS varsity team, 2 years ago, and the run scored without question. The umpires, opposing coach, many fans and many players DID NOT see the runner intentionally miss 3rd base. Guess what? They were all watching the fly ball. I would think that this could have been a live or dead ball appeal by the defense although the game continued as nothing wrong had happened. I saw this as I was curious if the PU would watch the bases being touched (or not touched) by the runners since the BU went out to track the fly ball to the outfield.
Sam

[gobama84]

Originally Posted by U of M Sam

I think what is being asked is if anyone has seen a baserunner advancing from 2nd to 3rd cut inside 3rd and miss the base on purpose (to shorten the distance to the plate) while the umpires (2 man system) were watching the ball hit to the outfield.
I observed this while watching my son's HS varsity team, 2 years ago, and the run scored without question. The umpires, opposing coach, many fans and many players DID NOT see the runner intentionally miss 3rd base. Guess what? They were all watching the fly ball. I would think that this could have been a live or dead ball appeal by the defense although the game continued as nothing wrong had happened. I saw this as I was curious if the PU would watch the bases being touched (or not touched) by the runners since the BU went out to track the fly ball to the outfield.
Sam

The BU should not go out with runners on base in a two-man crew.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Justme

Runner on 1st or 2nd (or both), ball hit to the outfield.

Has anyone ever seen a base runner going from 2nd base to 3rd base cut inside (around the cutout area or sooner) to shorten the running distance when he thought that the umpires were watching the ball instead of the base running?

If you have had this pulled on you what did you call?

When FED had a rule about a runner being called out if he missed a base, the runners started touching the bases.

Since the rule was changed, I have several runners a game miss a base.

I have had none appealed at all - basically players are not taught to watch the runner touch any more - shame on them.

But as an umpire you just let them play and wait for an appeal.

Thanks
David

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by gobama84

The BU should not go out with runners on base in a two-man crew.

I realize this.
I was just passing on what I saw at my son's game regarding missed 3rd base in reference to the original post.
Sam

[Justme]

Originally Posted by U of M Sam

I think what is being asked is if anyone has seen a baserunner advancing from 2nd to 3rd cut inside 3rd and miss the base on purpose (to shorten the distance to the plate) while the umpires (2 man system) were watching the ball hit to the outfield.
I observed this while watching my son's HS varsity team, 2 years ago, and the run scored without question. The umpires, opposing coach, many fans and many players DID NOT see the runner intentionally miss 3rd base. Guess what? They were all watching the fly ball. I would think that this could have been a live or dead ball appeal by the defense although the game continued as nothing wrong had happened. I saw this as I was curious if the PU would watch the bases being touched (or not touched) by the runners since the BU went out to track the fly ball to the outfield.
Sam

Thanks U od M Sam, you explained my situation much better than I did.

We have had some varsity teams in our association run this "play" during some scrimmages this season. It seems to be happening more and more in CA, according to the CIF. I was wondering if any of you other umpires have seen this happen where you work?

In our association meeting last night we were told that if this happens we are to eject the player for unsportsmanlike like behavior and warn the coach (other associations are also ejecting the coach).

[BigUmp56]

Maybe it's just me, but don't you think ejecting a player for intentionally missing a base is over the top?

The rules have a proscribed penalty for the infraction if it's appealed, so why would your association want to add to the rules?

Do you also eject if a runner fails to tag on a long fly ball intentionally?


Tim.

[LMan]

In reading your sitch..... if the defense didn't see it, and the umpires didn't see it, how did anyone know the 'play' was run?


You gotta be kidding....another "solution" in search of a problem. 'Oh gee, it just doesn't seem fair, how can we invent a rule to 'fix' this?'

There's a specific section of the rulebook that addresses this very issue: it's called, "Appeals."

If it occurs and NO ONE appeals, then it is legitimized - end of story. If there's an appeal, rule on it. If the umpires did not see the missed bag, then they erred, simple as that. You cannot call what you did not see.

Why penalize the offense for the umpires' mistake, and subsequently the defense's mistake in not seeing the missed base?

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by Justme

Thanks U od M Sam, you explained my situation much better than I did.

We have had some varsity teams in our association run this "play" during some scrimmages this season. It seems to be happening more and more in CA, according to the CIF. I was wondering if any of you other umpires have seen this happen where you work?

In our association meeting last night we were told that if this happens we are to eject the player for unsportsmanlike like behavior and warn the coach (other associations are also ejecting the coach).

(Justme): I am glad my post helped.
As mentioned in another reply, I am sure this did not happen (or at lease not as much) when the umpire had the automatic call on a missed base and the runner advanced to the next base. With the appeal process in place, I think some coaches "teach" the missed base "play". I know that when I am PU, I make sure to watch bases being touched in the event of an appeal by the defensive coach. Of course, when a base is missed by the runner and there is no appeal from the defensive coach we just continue the game with no mention or indication of the missed base.
Sam

[Justme]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Maybe it's just me, but don't you think ejecting a player for intentionally missing a base is over the top?

The rules have a proscribed penalty for the infraction if it's appealed, so why would your association want to add to the rules?

Do you also eject if a runner fails to tag on a long fly ball intentionally?


Tim.

First, I have no input into how our association wants us to rule on things like this, I was just asking others to find out their experiences.

As they explained things to us last night, missing a base would still be an appeal play per the rule book BUT if a player intentionally cuts several feet off by cutting inside then it is unsportsmanlike behavior (A.K.A. cheating).

[BigUmp56]

Don't take this as a personal attack because that's in no way my intention. I just don't see this as a good idea in any way, shape, or form.

There are many forms of 'cheating' we see in baseball. What about stealing signs, or intentionally BOO?

This is something that's never been addresses in our association. There's been no need to. There is a penalty in place, and that's what we use.


Tim.

[U of M Sam]

Originally Posted by Justme

First, I have no input into how our association wants us to rule on things like this, I was just asking others to find out their experiences.

As they explained things to us last night, missing a base would still be an appeal play per the rule book BUT if a player intentionally cuts several feet off by cutting inside then it is unsportsmanlike behavior (A.K.A. cheating).

WOW! This seems like a "made up" rule. In this situation would you allow the run and if no appeal occurred then eject the runner? What if no appeal and other runners scored on the same play? How are we as umpires to decide if a player or coach is "cheating"?
I trust it is best for umpires to enforce and properly apply the rules. Making "adjustments" as indicated will just create confusion.
Sam

[LMan]

Exactly. If faced with this 'guidance' from my association, I would simply ignore it.....will cause many more problems than it purports to solve.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by U of M Sam

WOW! This seems like a "made up" rule. In this situation would you allow the run and if no appeal occurred then eject the runner? What if no appeal and other runners scored on the same play? How are we as umpires to decide if a player or coach is "cheating"?
I trust it is best for umpires to enforce and properly apply the rules. Making "adjustments" as indicated will just create confusion.
Sam

My association feels that it is cheating for a coach to teach a player to intentionally miss a base by several feet in order to gain an advantage over the defense. They feel that by ejecting the player (and in some associations the coach) it sends a strong message to everyone that cheating of any kind will not be tolerated. We are also required to mention this new ruling during our pre-game meeting with the coaches, kind of preventive umpiring.

Personally, I feel that I could handle it using the current rules, an appeal play, regardless of how much the runner cuts off. A missed base is a missed base, regardless of by how much or why the runner missed it. I am concerned that some umpires, especially the rookies (3 years or less) will be calling this for a base missed by inches. That would not be good.

BUT

Whether I agree with my associations decision in this matter or not I am obligated to enforce the rules as my association dictates.