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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 07:13am
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D3K differences

.I work occassionaly with a group of umpires at our local park. Multiple softball and baseball leagues. One softball league uses rules from ASA and one from usssa. Our baseball leagues uses OBR (Legion). I have only ever been sanctioned for fed and NCAA softball and both were 5+ years ago.

Under the various codes when is a batter declared out after a dropped 3rd strike if s/he does not go to first? Leaves home area? Enters dugout? "Abandons" (interp please)? I am doing a little presentation on D3K differences, interpretations, and mechanics at next Wednesday's meeting because the coaches complained to our uic that there wasn't consistency, so we are trying to line up our ducks.thanks for your time
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 07:31am
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FED, ASA and USSSA are all when the batter/runner enters the dugout or dead ball territory. USSSA adds the provision also if all the infielders have left the diamond.

Fixed it.

Last edited by RKBUmp; Thu May 22, 2014 at 08:34am.
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 08:25am
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You may consider this just semantics, but I believe rule terminology is important.

No batter is ever out for entering the dugout. If she/he is still a batter, you put her/him back up to bat.

However, after strike 3 is dropped, the batter becomes a batter-runner. A batter-runner is out when they abandon the effort to first base by entering dead ball territory (be it dugout, or go out another gate).
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. View Post
.I work occassionaly with a group of umpires at our local park. Multiple softball and baseball leagues. One softball league uses rules from ASA and one from usssa. Our baseball leagues uses OBR (Legion). I have only ever been sanctioned for fed and NCAA softball and both were 5+ years ago.

Under the various codes when is a batter declared out after a dropped 3rd strike if s/he does not go to first? Leaves home area? Enters dugout? "Abandons" (interp please)? I am doing a little presentation on D3K differences, interpretations, and mechanics at next Wednesday's meeting because the coaches complained to our uic that there wasn't consistency, so we are trying to line up our ducks.thanks for your time
OBR has recently changed the rule to consider the BR out if he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate. I don't know for sure how far down the chain of OBR-based organizations like Legion, U-Trip, Babe Ruth, etc., that change has been adopted. I do know that Little League baseball (and, as an extension, LL Softball) still requires the BR to enter the dugout or other dead ball area.

The "abandon" interp deals with the umpire judging that the BR has exhibited no effort to advance to first, mostly when the inning ends. For example, if the BR happens to be the shortstop, and he/she starts heading for that position while a teammate brings him/her the glove, you can easily judge that the BR has abandoned the effort to advance. Judgments on abandonment get more tricky when the BR stays near home plate or heads for his/her dugout. Most umpires won't make an out call until the BR clearly shows no intent to go to first.
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 12:20pm
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OBR? They do softball now?
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 12:24pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
OBR? They do softball now?
Only in a roundabout way when it comes to organizations like Little League and Babe Ruth (there may be others).

The LL Softball rule book is virtually verbatim with the Baseball counterpart, which is OBR based. LL has gotten better in changing the softball rules to be more in line with ASA. But for a while, LL Softball was nothing more than LL Baseball with a larger ball and underhand pitching.

I only brought it up because the OP mentioned OBR. Figured he wanted to know the differences for both sports.
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Old Thu May 22, 2014, 09:41pm
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Had this a few weeks ago in HS.

Nobody on, 2 out. D3K, batter-runner (since it was a D3K) starts walking toward the first base dugout, not toward the base.

The defense walks toward their dugout and huddles inside live ball territory. The first base coach all the while is yelling at the batter to run to first. about 2 steps from the dugout, the BR takes off to first. I call her safe, then she takes off for second and third while the defense comes on the field to get the ball the catcher had rolled to the pitching circle.

The DC coach comes out to argue. The ruling from the casebook is pretty clear. The BR did not enter dead ball territory, nor did the infields ever leave the diamond (they stayed in live ball territory to huddle). The third ruling from the casebook would not apply since it is another pitching being delivered.


The diamond, for this casebook ruling is defined as live ball territory.

I spent several minutes trying to explain this call to the coach after the game as well, using the rulebook as evidence.

As far as I know, the rule codes are pretty similar on when a BR is out on a D3K.
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 09:43am
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Thank you all for your brief responses.

I was basically asking for the distinction between ASA and USSSA (softball) and OBR (baseball).

Since I haven't done much more than "volunteer" in umpire world for 5 years I have reverted to some laymen terms. My apologies...b/r not batter...
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 11:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
The defense walks toward their dugout and huddles inside live ball territory.
Do you allow huddles in live ball territory? NFHS 3-6-6 says you should not. That was a point of emphasis a few years ago. In Florida, we will ding the crew if you allow it.
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 12:07pm
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Originally Posted by argodad View Post
Do you allow huddles in live ball territory? NFHS 3-6-6 says you should not. That was a point of emphasis a few years ago. In Florida, we will ding the crew if you allow it.
3-6-6 does allow all bench personnel to throw and run on the field between innings. It also allows for teammates to come out of the dugout to congratulate a player who hits an out-of-the-park home run. So what's the big deal with huddles?
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 12:20pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
So what's the big deal with huddles?
In our neck of the woods, it was explained as a safety issue in a specific setting. If the coming-to-bat team huddles outside their dugout, they may be hit by an errant throw of the defensive team who are "throwing grounders."
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 12:54pm
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In our neck of the woods, it was explained as a safety issue in a specific setting. If the coming-to-bat team huddles outside their dugout, they may be hit by an errant throw of the defensive team who are "throwing grounders."
And players running from the dugout to the foul pole and back while those warm-up throws are being made isn't a "safety issue"? I've seen those girls dodge balls on occasion that get past F3 as they run in foul territory behind first base.

The only real "issue" I've noticed with huddles is when the defensive team has one before they go out to their positions. That tends to slow the game down.
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 02:12pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
And players running from the dugout to the foul pole and back while those warm-up throws are being made isn't a "safety issue"? I've seen those girls dodge balls on occasion that get past F3 as they run in foul territory behind first base.
Hey, I'm just reporting - I'm not trying to justify/rationalize.
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 03:12pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
....The only real "issue" I've noticed with huddles is when the defensive team has one before they go out to their positions. That tends to slow the game down.
In HS and ASA ball, they have a minute between innings....if they want to use that minute huddling in front of the dugout....their choice.
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Old Fri May 23, 2014, 07:04pm
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
In HS and ASA ball, they have a minute between innings....if they want to use that minute huddling in front of the dugout....their choice.
Well, only if you are more anal than I am. The pitcher has one minute to complete his/her allotted amount of warm-up pitches.

There is nothing in the books of which I am aware stating that the defense and offense must be prepared to play after one minute of the new inning.
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