The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Softball (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/)
-   -   D3K differences (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/97940-d3k-differences.html)

Reffing Rev. Thu May 22, 2014 07:13am

D3K differences
 
.I work occassionaly with a group of umpires at our local park. Multiple softball and baseball leagues. One softball league uses rules from ASA and one from usssa. Our baseball leagues uses OBR (Legion). I have only ever been sanctioned for fed and NCAA softball and both were 5+ years ago.

Under the various codes when is a batter declared out after a dropped 3rd strike if s/he does not go to first? Leaves home area? Enters dugout? "Abandons" (interp please)? I am doing a little presentation on D3K differences, interpretations, and mechanics at next Wednesday's meeting because the coaches complained to our uic that there wasn't consistency, so we are trying to line up our ducks.thanks for your time

RKBUmp Thu May 22, 2014 07:31am

FED, ASA and USSSA are all when the batter/runner enters the dugout or dead ball territory. USSSA adds the provision also if all the infielders have left the diamond.

Fixed it.

AtlUmpSteve Thu May 22, 2014 08:25am

You may consider this just semantics, but I believe rule terminology is important.

No batter is ever out for entering the dugout. If she/he is still a batter, you put her/him back up to bat.

However, after strike 3 is dropped, the batter becomes a batter-runner. A batter-runner is out when they abandon the effort to first base by entering dead ball territory (be it dugout, or go out another gate).

Manny A Thu May 22, 2014 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev. (Post 934649)
.I work occassionaly with a group of umpires at our local park. Multiple softball and baseball leagues. One softball league uses rules from ASA and one from usssa. Our baseball leagues uses OBR (Legion). I have only ever been sanctioned for fed and NCAA softball and both were 5+ years ago.

Under the various codes when is a batter declared out after a dropped 3rd strike if s/he does not go to first? Leaves home area? Enters dugout? "Abandons" (interp please)? I am doing a little presentation on D3K differences, interpretations, and mechanics at next Wednesday's meeting because the coaches complained to our uic that there wasn't consistency, so we are trying to line up our ducks.thanks for your time

OBR has recently changed the rule to consider the BR out if he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate. I don't know for sure how far down the chain of OBR-based organizations like Legion, U-Trip, Babe Ruth, etc., that change has been adopted. I do know that Little League baseball (and, as an extension, LL Softball) still requires the BR to enter the dugout or other dead ball area.

The "abandon" interp deals with the umpire judging that the BR has exhibited no effort to advance to first, mostly when the inning ends. For example, if the BR happens to be the shortstop, and he/she starts heading for that position while a teammate brings him/her the glove, you can easily judge that the BR has abandoned the effort to advance. Judgments on abandonment get more tricky when the BR stays near home plate or heads for his/her dugout. Most umpires won't make an out call until the BR clearly shows no intent to go to first.

MD Longhorn Thu May 22, 2014 12:20pm

OBR? They do softball now? :)

Manny A Thu May 22, 2014 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 934685)
OBR? They do softball now? :)

Only in a roundabout way when it comes to organizations like Little League and Babe Ruth (there may be others).

The LL Softball rule book is virtually verbatim with the Baseball counterpart, which is OBR based. LL has gotten better in changing the softball rules to be more in line with ASA. But for a while, LL Softball was nothing more than LL Baseball with a larger ball and underhand pitching.

I only brought it up because the OP mentioned OBR. Figured he wanted to know the differences for both sports.

chapmaja Thu May 22, 2014 09:41pm

Had this a few weeks ago in HS.

Nobody on, 2 out. D3K, batter-runner (since it was a D3K) starts walking toward the first base dugout, not toward the base.

The defense walks toward their dugout and huddles inside live ball territory. The first base coach all the while is yelling at the batter to run to first. about 2 steps from the dugout, the BR takes off to first. I call her safe, then she takes off for second and third while the defense comes on the field to get the ball the catcher had rolled to the pitching circle.

The DC coach comes out to argue. The ruling from the casebook is pretty clear. The BR did not enter dead ball territory, nor did the infields ever leave the diamond (they stayed in live ball territory to huddle). The third ruling from the casebook would not apply since it is another pitching being delivered.


The diamond, for this casebook ruling is defined as live ball territory.

I spent several minutes trying to explain this call to the coach after the game as well, using the rulebook as evidence.

As far as I know, the rule codes are pretty similar on when a BR is out on a D3K.

Reffing Rev. Fri May 23, 2014 09:43am

Thank you all for your brief responses.

I was basically asking for the distinction between ASA and USSSA (softball) and OBR (baseball).

Since I haven't done much more than "volunteer" in umpire world for 5 years I have reverted to some laymen terms. My apologies...b/r not batter...

argodad Fri May 23, 2014 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 934715)
The defense walks toward their dugout and huddles inside live ball territory.

Do you allow huddles in live ball territory? NFHS 3-6-6 says you should not. That was a point of emphasis a few years ago. In Florida, we will ding the crew if you allow it.

Manny A Fri May 23, 2014 12:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by argodad (Post 934742)
Do you allow huddles in live ball territory? NFHS 3-6-6 says you should not. That was a point of emphasis a few years ago. In Florida, we will ding the crew if you allow it.

3-6-6 does allow all bench personnel to throw and run on the field between innings. It also allows for teammates to come out of the dugout to congratulate a player who hits an out-of-the-park home run. So what's the big deal with huddles?

Jake26 Fri May 23, 2014 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934746)
So what's the big deal with huddles?

In our neck of the woods, it was explained as a safety issue in a specific setting. If the coming-to-bat team huddles outside their dugout, they may be hit by an errant throw of the defensive team who are "throwing grounders."

Manny A Fri May 23, 2014 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake26 (Post 934747)
In our neck of the woods, it was explained as a safety issue in a specific setting. If the coming-to-bat team huddles outside their dugout, they may be hit by an errant throw of the defensive team who are "throwing grounders."

And players running from the dugout to the foul pole and back while those warm-up throws are being made isn't a "safety issue"? I've seen those girls dodge balls on occasion that get past F3 as they run in foul territory behind first base.

The only real "issue" I've noticed with huddles is when the defensive team has one before they go out to their positions. That tends to slow the game down.

Jake26 Fri May 23, 2014 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934752)
And players running from the dugout to the foul pole and back while those warm-up throws are being made isn't a "safety issue"? I've seen those girls dodge balls on occasion that get past F3 as they run in foul territory behind first base.

Hey, I'm just reporting - I'm not trying to justify/rationalize.

Andy Fri May 23, 2014 03:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 934752)
....The only real "issue" I've noticed with huddles is when the defensive team has one before they go out to their positions. That tends to slow the game down.

In HS and ASA ball, they have a minute between innings....if they want to use that minute huddling in front of the dugout....their choice.

IRISHMAFIA Fri May 23, 2014 07:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy (Post 934765)
In HS and ASA ball, they have a minute between innings....if they want to use that minute huddling in front of the dugout....their choice.

Well, only if you are more anal than I am. The pitcher has one minute to complete his/her allotted amount of warm-up pitches.

There is nothing in the books of which I am aware stating that the defense and offense must be prepared to play after one minute of the new inning.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:53am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1