Immediate Out Call, or Wait for Appeal?

[Manny A]

FED rules. R1 and R2 at third and second, resp. Single scores both, but R2 misses the plate as the throw home gets cut off and a play is made on the BR going to second. As R2 heads for her dugout, the on-deck batter, who saw R2 miss home, grabs her, turns her around, and tells her to go back to home.

What should the PU do at that point? Does he/she rule R2 out immediately for teammate assistance under rule 8-6-5? Or does that rule no longer apply since R2 passed home so she is assumed to have reached it, thereby making her a runner that has already scored? And if that's the case, does that scored runner stay viable for an appeal call even if she touches home because she was assisted by a teammate to do so?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

FED rules. R1 and R2 at third and second, resp. Single scores both, but R2 misses the plate as the throw home gets cut off and a play is made on the BR going to second. As R2 heads for her dugout, the on-deck batter, who saw R2 miss home, grabs her, turns her around, and tells her to go back to home.

What should the PU do at that point? Does he/she rule R2 out immediately for teammate assistance under rule 8-6-5? Or does that rule no longer apply since R2 passed home so she is assumed to have reached it, thereby making her a runner that has already scored? And if that's the case, does that scored runner stay viable for an appeal call even if she touches home because she was assisted by a teammate to do so?

It's rare when one of these makes me wonder... but this one did.

I think my initial thought, and how I'd probably rule on the field, would be that the assist is not illegal at the moment it's made - the runner is a scored runner. But if the runner made it back to touch home, it retroactively means the runner had NOT scored at the time of the assist, and I'd call the out then - even without an appeal.

But I wait to be corrected by Irish or Steve if this is not what ASA would want.

[Dakota]

Technically, the teammate assisted the "retired runner" (2-50-2) become a "runner" (2-50-1) . 8-6-5 applies. Runner out. Ball remains live.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

FED rules. R1 and R2 at third and second, resp. Single scores both, but R2 misses the plate as the throw home gets cut off and a play is made on the BR going to second. As R2 heads for her dugout, the on-deck batter, who saw R2 miss home, grabs her, turns her around, and tells her to go back to home.

What should the PU do at that point? Does he/she rule R2 out immediately for teammate assistance under rule 8-6-5? Or does that rule no longer apply since R2 passed home so she is assumed to have reached it, thereby making her a runner that has already scored? And if that's the case, does that scored runner stay viable for an appeal call even if she touches home because she was assisted by a teammate to do so?

I think the "grabs her, turns her around" part is assistance as opposed to the verbal part; so assisted runner applies.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Technically, the teammate assisted the "retired runner" (2-50-2) become a "runner" (2-50-1) . 8-6-5 applies. Runner out. Ball remains live.

Books in the car. What does 2-50-1 and 2 say that leads you to that?

Not arguing ... just want to see the fine print.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Books in the car. What does 2-50-1 and 2 say that leads you to that?

Not arguing ... just want to see the fine print.

(NFHS)
2-50-1 is definition of runner: "...an offensive player who is advancing to, touching or returning to a base."

2-50-2 is definition of retired runner: "..a player who has scored, or who has been put out and who is still in live ball territory."

So i think the reasoning here is when teammate picked her up and sent her returning to a base she is now by definition a runner again and so is out under 8-6-5. No need to wait till she touches home.

In ASA there is no definition of a "Retired runner". However in 8-7-E Exception it states that in this specific situation the ball is dead at the time of the teammate assistance and all runners return to base occupied at time of the assistance. The runner who had missed home and was illegally assisted is out.

Note in ASA this is only time when illegal physical assistance is a dead ball it normally is assisted runner out and ball remains alive and in play.

In effect looks like only real difference between NFHS and ASA is that if this happens in ASA we kill the ball and in NFHS we keep it alive. Either way the assisted player who missed home is out when illegally assisted.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

(NFHS)
2-50-1 is definition of runner: "...an offensive player who is advancing to, touching or returning to a base."

2-50-2 is definition of retired runner: "..a player who has scored, or who has been put out and who is still in live ball territory."

So i think the reasoning here is when teammate picked her up and sent her returning to a base she is now by definition a runner again and so is out under 8-6-5. No need to wait till she touches home.

In ASA there is no definition of a "Retired runner". However in 8-7-E Exception it states that in this specific situation the ball is dead at the time of the teammate assistance and all runners return to base occupied at time of the assistance. The runner who had missed home and was illegally assisted is out.

Note in ASA this is only time when illegal physical assistance is a dead ball it normally is assisted runner out and ball remains alive and in play.

In effect looks like only real difference between NFHS and ASA is that if this happens in ASA we kill the ball and in NFHS we keep it alive. Either way the assisted player who missed home is out when illegally assisted.

I am going to disagree on this. This is a complicated ruling, however a few things to consider.

The runner is said to have touched the plate when she passes the plate. Since we are talking about home plate, the run is said to have scored. The only way a runner who is deemed to have scored can be put out is if the defense appeals that she left early or she missed a base. Since she had passed the plate, and by rule is deemed to have touched the plate, the she is now defined as a retired runner. There is nothing in the rulebook against helping a retired runner. This is no different then a play when the runner slides into home and misses the plate. The only way she can be put out is by an appeal that she missed the base.

The assistance is not illegal in this case.

8-3-4, 8-6-9

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I am going to disagree on this.

The assistance is not illegal in this case.

8-3-4, 8-6-9

Well, that clears it up then. Ernie's ruling is now confirmed as correct.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well, that clears it up then. Ernie's ruling is now confirmed as correct.

[CecilOne]

However, at the instant the runner is touched by the teammate, she is a scored runner, so do we care what anyone does? Usually, high/low fives, back slaps, maybe hugs, etc.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

However, at the instant the runner is touched by the teammate, she is a scored runner, so do we care what anyone does? Usually, high/low fives, back slaps, maybe hugs, etc.

High fives, etc., no. Touching is not assisting.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Well, that clears it up then. Ernie's ruling is now confirmed as correct.

Thanks, Mike