Obstruction

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Umpires need to STOP ENTIRELY using the "she was thrown out by X feet argument.

An umpire making a decision using that logic, or even making that statement after the fact, is waiting far too long to decide what the proper award should be.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the clairvoyance to determine what the runner might have achieved minus the obstruction without letting everything play out.

Where does it say in the rules and interpretations that we must decide immediately what the proper award should be, and not deviate from that decision, no matter what happens next?

[tcannizzo]

We just had this discussion in "That's Interference"
http://forum.officiating.com/933817-post43.html

[Little Jimmy]

I seem to remember a discussion awhile back where ASA wanted the decision for potential reward made at the time of the obstruction, but Fed allowed for the play to develop. FWIW, page 35 of the Fed umpire manual speaks of obstruction but doesn't give a specific as to when the decision needs to be made. Page 252 of the 2010 ASA manuel (my latest) says essentially the same. I think Manny has a point in questioning the validity of making the unretractable decision at the moment of the infraction. Has this been emphasized in clinics?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the clairvoyance to determine what the runner might have achieved minus the obstruction without letting everything play out.

Then you are probably in the wrong job since a good portion of an umpire's responsibilities involves making decisions based upon conjecture

Where does it say in the rules and interpretations that we must decide immediately what the proper award should be, and not deviate from that decision, no matter what happens next?

Where does it say you shouldn't? If you had attended a national clinic or school, or even just the CAR clinic, or at least when it was a decent rules clinic, you probably would have heard that direction.

And it is nothing new. Same direction I received a quarter of a century ago long before I became a UIC and clinician.

[IRISHMAFIA]

You know, umpires are not rules makers, yet we constantly run into umpires who want to adjust rules to their beliefs or convenience.

The purpose of an OBS ruling is to negate the OBS, not give a runner free pass until s/he stops or gets put out.

A misplay of a thrown ball @ third, or anywhere else for that matter, has ZIP to do with an OBS at 1B, This is why the determination should be made based upon the, and I hate using this term as it's meaning has become so convoluted in this game, initial play by the defense..

[Manny A]

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

It would not be unusual for a high school age girl to cover that 15 feet in a second or so at full speed. The point was made earlier that using distance to determine the protection for obstruction is not reliable nor likely to be consistently enforced.

IDK whether reliability or consistency is improved by making the judgment of "single", "double", "triple",... , but those that teach umpiring clinics apparently believe it is.

Besides, if you are making calls based on your ability to convince the coach....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

Either A) your judgement at the time of obstruction of where BR would have ended up absent the obstruction was quite awful or B) SOMETHING happened after the obstruction to make that play at 3rd closer. Perhaps the throw came in weaker than it would have had the runner been further along... I can't know without being there.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Either A) your judgement at the time of obstruction of where BR would have ended up absent the obstruction was quite awful or B) SOMETHING happened after the obstruction to make that play at 3rd closer. Perhaps the throw came in weaker than it would have had the runner been further along... I can't know without being there.

Whether my judgment or the outfielder's arm sucks, that's immaterial. The fact is, I initially protected the BR to second base, the throw barely beats her to third base, I realize that without the obstruction, she would have made it to third, and I can't adjust my initial instinct. That makes zero sense to me.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Whether my judgment or the outfielder's arm sucks, that's immaterial. The fact is, I initially protected the BR to second base, the throw barely beats her to third base, I realize that without the obstruction, she would have made it to third, and I can't adjust my initial instinct. That makes zero sense to me.

I can't help you if your judgement sucks. And you're completely misunderstanding my point on the throw. Intentionally, it seems. I can't help you. The smartest minds in the room can't help you either, apparently.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

What I have been advocating for the last few years is to start making a determination as to the protection at the time of the obstruction. Not an absolute, irrevocable decision. Some of the factors to take into account are the speed of the runner and the positioning and arm strength of the fielder. If it's early in the game and you haven't had the opportunity to observe some of these things yet, your initial determination can be revised. For this play, perhaps this runner is extremely fast and would have made third where an average runner would only make it to second. Absent a subsequent event unrelated to the obstruction, I would say it is OK to revise your initial determination of this runners protection.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

If this same BR had simply rounded 2B by two steps and retreated would you have awarded her 3B at the end of playing action?

We don't need to convince the coach of anything. "In my judgement..."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

T
H
E
PISSING INTO >
W
I
N
D

I give up.