Obstruction

[Manny A]

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

It would not be unusual for a high school age girl to cover that 15 feet in a second or so at full speed. The point was made earlier that using distance to determine the protection for obstruction is not reliable nor likely to be consistently enforced.

IDK whether reliability or consistency is improved by making the judgment of "single", "double", "triple",... , but those that teach umpiring clinics apparently believe it is.

Besides, if you are making calls based on your ability to convince the coach....

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

Either A) your judgement at the time of obstruction of where BR would have ended up absent the obstruction was quite awful or B) SOMETHING happened after the obstruction to make that play at 3rd closer. Perhaps the throw came in weaker than it would have had the runner been further along... I can't know without being there.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Either A) your judgement at the time of obstruction of where BR would have ended up absent the obstruction was quite awful or B) SOMETHING happened after the obstruction to make that play at 3rd closer. Perhaps the throw came in weaker than it would have had the runner been further along... I can't know without being there.

Whether my judgment or the outfielder's arm sucks, that's immaterial. The fact is, I initially protected the BR to second base, the throw barely beats her to third base, I realize that without the obstruction, she would have made it to third, and I can't adjust my initial instinct. That makes zero sense to me.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Whether my judgment or the outfielder's arm sucks, that's immaterial. The fact is, I initially protected the BR to second base, the throw barely beats her to third base, I realize that without the obstruction, she would have made it to third, and I can't adjust my initial instinct. That makes zero sense to me.

I can't help you if your judgement sucks. And you're completely misunderstanding my point on the throw. Intentionally, it seems. I can't help you. The smartest minds in the room can't help you either, apparently.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Whether my judgment or the outfielder's arm sucks, that's immaterial. The fact is, I initially protected the BR to second base, the throw barely beats her to third base, I realize that without the obstruction, she would have made it to third, and I can't adjust my initial instinct. That makes zero sense to me.

You are allowed (by clinician training) to adjust. What they teach against is continually adjusting based on subsequent playing action.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...the determination should be made based upon the... initial play by the defense..

(caveat: this use of "initial play" is not using the term in the NFHS rule definition sense.)

Well? Was that the "initial play" by the defense?

Nonetheless, we're told by those that should know that using "by how much distance she was out" as your deciding factor is not a reliable indicator, and this can go both ways. As I wrote above, your 15 feet may sound like a dead duck out even with the OBS, but that distance likely would have been covered by the runner in under a second.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Dakota

You are allowed (by clinician training) to adjust. What they teach against is continually adjusting based on subsequent playing action.

Ding Ding Ding! That's what I've been trying to say all along!

Originally Posted by Dakota

Nonetheless, we're told by those that should know that using "by how much distance she was out" as your deciding factor is not a reliable indicator, and this can go both ways. As I wrote above, your 15 feet may sound like a dead duck out even with the OBS, but that distance likely would have been covered by the runner in under a second.

I can agree with that. Perhaps my reference to 15 feet was not extreme enough. I was just trying to compare two scenarios where it is obvious that the obstruction affected the result of one and not the other.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ding Ding Ding! That's what I've been trying to say all along!



I can agree with that. Perhaps my reference to 15 feet was not extreme enough. I was just trying to compare two scenarios where it is obvious that the obstruction affected the result of one and not the other.

Honestly... even your reference to inches was not appropriate.

Any actions by the fielder, other than simply playing the ball (as alluded to by both Mike and Dakota), are affected by where the runner is ... and where the runner is is affected by the OBS. It's not the strength of the outfielder's arm that I was alluding to - it was the urgency of getting the ball in.

What I was trying to say earlier is that if your judgement is good enough that you should be on the field, and you judge the runner to be awarded 2nd - and then subsequently that runner gets thrown out at third (by an eyelash or by 45 feet), they are out at third. The fact that they were thrown out by an eyelash should not affect your call any more than them being thrown out by 45 feet, because the throw (including it's speed, urgency, and where it's thrown to) are affected by the location of the runner when that throw is made.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

What I have been advocating for the last few years is to start making a determination as to the protection at the time of the obstruction. Not an absolute, irrevocable decision. Some of the factors to take into account are the speed of the runner and the positioning and arm strength of the fielder. If it's early in the game and you haven't had the opportunity to observe some of these things yet, your initial determination can be revised. For this play, perhaps this runner is extremely fast and would have made third where an average runner would only make it to second. Absent a subsequent event unrelated to the obstruction, I would say it is OK to revise your initial determination of this runners protection.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

If this same BR had simply rounded 2B by two steps and retreated would you have awarded her 3B at the end of playing action?

We don't need to convince the coach of anything. "In my judgement..."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

So if the BR makes contact with a clueless F3 as she rounds first on a gapper, and you decide at that moment she is going to be protected only to second base, but she keeps going to third and gets tagged out on the F9 to F4 to F5 relay:

A. By an eyelash
B. By 15 feet

It doesn't matter, and we rule her out? Well then, good luck convincing the OC that the BR would never have made third minus the obstruction.

T
H
E
PISSING INTO >
W
I
N
D

I give up.