NCAA Mechanics Question

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by hit4power

I'm not an ump but interested in learning and value the input of the experts on the board.

Happened last week in Clermont....R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B. B3 is a lefty slapper who takes the normal run up on the first three pitches without offering or swinging. Count is 1 and 2. On the next pitch she bunts or slaps the pitch foul. PU rings her up for a foul bunt and DC comes out to argue. PU says he didn't see any wrist break so no swing, hence bunt. After more arguing PU confers with BU and then affirms the original call of foul bunt - out. DC then berates PU for going to his partner after making the call rather than before making the call.

So what's the preferred mechanic in this situation? Should PU have gone to BU to see if he saw bunt vs. slap before making the call?

The general policy, not necessarily NCAA, is to make the call, then ask for help if you think it is needed.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The general policy, not necessarily NCAA, is to make the call, then ask for help if you think it is needed.

I don't think that is a general policy, at least not one I have seen in print.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I don't think that is a general policy, at least not one I have seen in print.

And I've been told otherwise in clinics. I don't understand why.

In baseball, when a base umpire isn't sure of the pulled foot/swipe tag at first base, the practice is to go to the partner first for help, and then make the call after the partner gives his/her input. That's not the case in softball as I've learned. We are to make the call we believe we see, and then go for help if asked. I never understood why the difference.

So, are you saying we should ask for help before making a call?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And I've been told otherwise in clinics. I don't understand why.

In baseball, when a base umpire isn't sure of the pulled foot/swipe tag at first base, the practice is to go to the partner first for help, and then make the call after the partner gives his/her input. That's not the case in softball as I've learned. We are to make the call we believe we see, and then go for help if asked. I never understood why the difference.

So, are you saying we should ask for help before making a call?

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

What if the play happens at first and before you (BU) make a call, you go to your partner and....

...Your partner has already moved to third for a potential play?
...Your partner was watching the runner on second and F6 collide?
...Your partner just went brain dead and wasn't even looking at first base?
...Your partner is a rookie that still isn't sure of their responsibilities on a play like this?

etc....etc....etc.

It's your call at the base. Make it using all the information you have available. Go for help if needed.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

What if the play happens at first and before you (BU) make a call, you go to your partner and....

...Your partner has already moved to third for a potential play?
...Your partner was watching the runner on second and F6 collide?
...Your partner just went brain dead and wasn't even looking at first base?
...Your partner is a rookie that still isn't sure of their responsibilities on a play like this?

etc....etc....etc.

It's your call at the base. Make it using all the information you have available. Go for help if needed.

Yeah, Andy. A convert!!

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

Yeah, you might get it right in the first place.

Another example of paranoid "what if" softball umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Yeah, you might get it right in the first place.

Another example of paranoid "what if" softball umpires.

Absolutely correct.

What if Umpire: Okay, here comes the throw. POP! Yep, beat him by 5 strides....but did the first baseman pull the foot just a bit early....hmmmm......what if the foot was pulled early......wow, I don't want to get this wrong......I know, I'll go to my partner to make sure I got this one right.....(looking up)...er, where is he?.......shouldn't he be trailing the batter-runner.......what's he doing up the third base line?..... there probably wasn't.....WAIT! where's the ball?......oh, the runner on first base must've kept running.....what am I going to do with this player and coach screaming at me for a call?.......

Yep, I want to be on that crew.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely correct.

What if Umpire: Okay, here comes the throw. POP! Yep, beat him by 5 strides....but did the first baseman pull the foot just a bit early....hmmmm......what if the foot was pulled early......wow, I don't want to get this wrong......I know, I'll go to my partner to make sure I got this one right.....(looking up)...er, where is he?.......shouldn't he be trailing the batter-runner.......what's he doing up the third base line?..... there probably wasn't.....WAIT! where's the ball?......oh, the runner on first base must've kept running.....what am I going to do with this player and coach screaming at me for a call?.......

Yep, I want to be on that crew.

Never once happened in the dozens of situations where this arrises and that's with umpires off all ability or the lack thereof.

Just blow the call and let the shit hit the fan and figure it out from there...

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Andy

It's your call at the base. Make it using all the information you have available. Go for help if needed.

Of course, it happened to me last night. Runners on second and third, ball hit to a "ranging" F6. Only play at first, short hop throw. I'm PU, and watching the best I can from outside the base line, as I've got F2 and a runner in front of me. I'm waiting for his call as I'm looking toward first. I don't here anything, so I turned to look at him. His "wide-eyed look" turned into a "what do you have?"

Of course, that brought all the heat on me.

I'm all for "make the call and let the coaches ask." In this case, I would have also accepted: "She is out if she held the base, partner, did she hold the base." That is making a call, and then asking for more info on his own (accepted by the NCAA manual). But he did neither, and brought his (and his crew/partner's) credibility down. We had a long post game about it (as he wants to start moving up).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Of course, it happened to me last night. Runners on second and third, ball hit to a "ranging" F6. Only play at first, short hop throw. I'm PU, and watching the best I can from outside the base line, as I've got F2 and a runner in front of me. I'm waiting for his call as I'm looking toward first. I don't here anything, so I turned to look at him. His "wide-eyed look" turned into a "what do you have?"

Of course, that brought all the heat on me.

I'm all for "make the call and let the coaches ask." In this case, I would have also accepted: "She is out if she held the base, partner, did she hold the base." That is making a call, and then asking for more info on his own (accepted by the NCAA manual). But he did neither, and brought his (and his crew/partner's) credibility down. We had a long post game about it (as he wants to start moving up).

How many umpires? How many outs? If two, did the run score? If not, who was covering 3rd?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Of course, it happened to me last night. Runners on second and third, ball hit to a "ranging" F6. Only play at first, short hop throw. I'm PU, and watching the best I can from outside the base line, as I've got F2 and a runner in front of me. I'm waiting for his call as I'm looking toward first. I don't here anything, so I turned to look at him. His "wide-eyed look" turned into a "what do you have?"

Of course, that brought all the heat on me.

I'm all for "make the call and let the coaches ask." In this case, I would have also accepted: "She is out if she held the base, partner, did she hold the base." That is making a call, and then asking for more info on his own (accepted by the NCAA manual). But he did neither, and brought his (and his crew/partner's) credibility down. We had a long post game about it (as he wants to start moving up).

Why didn't you take a step or two to your left or right so you weren't blocked by the catcher and batter-runner? Or were you not really blocked and they were only in front of you? If the former, improve the positioning. If the latter, not relevant.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Why didn't you take a step or two to your left or right so you weren't blocked by the catcher and batter-runner? Or were you not really blocked and they were only in front of you? If the former, improve the positioning. If the latter, not relevant.

Who said I was "blocked"? I said:
" I'm PU, and watching the best I can from outside the base line, as I've got F2 and a runner in front of me."

I did "improve my positioning" as I adjusted for the "best" look I could get, but "best" is a very relative term. You can only get such a look at it. I gave him the information that I had, which wasn't good.

However, he makes a call, any call, and we don't have an issue.