NCAA Mechanics Question

rockyroad · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 01:32pm

I bumped into a D-I evaluator last night, and he told me that he had heard that the NCAA was changing the mechanic for rotation on a foul call...the calling official will now rotate to table side as either T or C right in front of the benches...has anyone else heard or seen this anywhere? I checked the NCAA.org site and couldn't find anything there...thanks!

dj

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 02:03pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
I bumped into a D-I evaluator last night, and he told me that he had heard that the NCAA was changing the mechanic for rotation on a foul call...the calling official will now rotate to table side as either T or C right in front of the benches...has anyone else heard or seen this anywhere? I checked the NCAA.org site and couldn't find anything there...thanks!

dj

dj,
If that's the case, then we can discuss every foul call with both coaches at the same time. How convenient!
Maybe there will be a new mechanic for our partners to wait until we're done chatting.
Just had another thought. Maybe they should just move the table and benches to the other side of the floor so we don't get screwed up.
mick

rockyroad · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 02:07pm

Those were pretty much my thoughts as he was telling me this, and he even said he would expect the # of T's to be higher in the early parts of the season...

JRutledge · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 03:23pm

Now which one? Are you talking about Men's or Women's side? The reason I asked is because I went to camp this past weekend and a friend of mine was a clinician, who happens to be in 7 Div. 1 conferences, including the Big 10 was there. Now he does the Women's side and he told me the same thing. Now he did not specify if both were changing, but just because one changes a mechnanic, does not mean that the other will too.

So was evaluator on the Men's or Women's side?

rockyroad · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 03:52pm

Actually, he evaluates for the Big Sky Conference...Big Sky Supervisor for Men and Women is the same person, so this guy actually evaluates for both! And no, he didn't specify, and my mind started conjuring up all the possible ugly scenarios so I never asked if it was one or the other...

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 04:18pm

Why do the both NCAA Men's and Women's and sit in a room and come up with some simularities or not make everything so different.

I was at a camp this past weekend like I said, and asked a question about rotations. Why did I even ask? I got turned into a big deal and how defensive I got when all I wanted to do was understand the philosophy of NF mechanics as it related to the NCAA women's video they just had shown us.

For those that are not familiar, both Men's and Women's NCAA puts out videos and they have different point of emphisis on the rules and mechanics concerns. If you have seen both videos or the differences by reading the rules and other changes they both make every year, they can be vastly different. All I wanted to know was how was the video (NCAA Women's side) different from the NF mechanics that are very different. This was a HS camp and many of the things they were asking us to do was all over the map. Some NF mechanics, some NCAA mechanics (both sides), some Pro mechanics. And the reason is that we had more officials that did other levels other than as clinicians than I had ever been around. About the only HS clinician was an assignor for one of the leagues in the state.

I just wish they would get together and make more similarities, because I am so confused when different people want to adopt this mechanic and this other mechanic because they do something other than HS, which is the only level I currently do.

But that would be wishful thinking.

112448 · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 05, 2001, 04:41pm

dj

my understanding is that is going to be a mechanics change on the women's side, not the men's. as i stated in an earlier thread, the ncaa women's mechanics are closer to the nba mechanics -- this latest change is bringing the women's mechanic one step closer to nba and wnba mechanics.

i for one feel the change could be very positive and wish they would adopt it on the men's side. (of course there are going to be some bumps in the road initially - just as there will be in the high school game with the extended coaches box). But there were a few T's given in games i worked last year that could have been prevented with this new mechanic.

one example.

i called a shooting foul from the Lead on the home team, reported the foul and switched to Center to adminster the free throws. as i was alerting the new Lead that we'd be shooting 2 shots, the Trail (who'd been the Trail the whole time) T'd up the home coach, mainly b/c he couldn't answer the coaches question and that frustrated the coach. under this new mechanic, i would have switched to the Trail position and would have been able to explain to the coach WHAT I CALLED.

again, my feeling is that if you've made the call you're the best person to explain to the coach why you made the call (of course some coaches won't like your answer, but they wouldn't really like any answer, and you're going to have to deal with that coach).

any thoughts,
Jake

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 12:00am

The NBA mechanic is for the reporting official to stay table side. As far as game flow, I think it makes sense. No more coming across to tableside then having to return to opposite table. I think most officials are big boys, and girls, and can take care of themselves.

The whole point of returning to opposite table was to get the calling official away from the coach. But here's hypocrisy for you. In the NF, the offficial who calls foul #5 on the star player has to inform the coach that his star has just fouled out, yet any other time they want you to report and get opposite table. I've always thought that was one of the most stupid rules in the book!

Kelvin green · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 02:27pm

The NBA is for the calling official to go to Trail, I am not sure that dealing with coaches has anything to do with it. The NBA has always had the philosophy of making sure that the officials are taking less steps. (DUH less steps by the official means getting the ball in play faster which means a coach has less time to think about yelling at the official)
They did make change a couple of years ago on calling official going to trail from the umpire always at Center NBA was the first to report the foul when they cleared the players not going to some stupid fictional reporting box on the floor.
NBA's taking it to the sideline is to save steps, how many of us as lead officials who call fouls (going the other way) or a violation stand OOB while signalling? no we all step on the floor so they dont have to go back to the baseline they go sideline and get the ball in play.

NBA has never done the long switches, Finally NF figured out you dont have too.

Not raising the open hand on a violation sor OOB to stop the clock (No one stops the clock on the hand going up, it's the whistle) saves energy, effort and no one loses anything in the game. ( it does save some time too)

No preliminary signals saves a ton of time and effort, and very rarely ever causes confusion.

Too bad we cant learn from this, instead NCAA, men/women/NF/ all want to do thigs differently. sometimes I think its the officials who are trying to protect some little kingdom.

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 04:45pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kelvin green

Not raising the open hand on a violation sor OOB to stop the clock (No one stops the clock on the hand going up, it's the whistle) saves energy, effort and no one loses anything in the game. ( it does save some time too)

No preliminary signals saves a ton of time and effort, and very rarely ever causes confusion.

Too bad we cant learn from this, instead NCAA, men/women/NF/ all want to do thigs differently. sometimes I think its the officials who are trying to protect some little kingdom.

I like many of the mechanics that the NBA uses. However, not all NBA mechanics would be good for NF and NCAA. The NBA referees are professional officials. They're training and continuing education is far greater than ours will ever be. As such, there are certain things that amatuer officials must do in order to slow us down and help us think.

You'll rarely ever see a double whistle on a block/charge in the NBA but it happens all the time in high school and college. Without the proper stopping of the clock, you get conflicting calls that get everybody in deep doo-doo.

I agree with you that the whistle is what the timer responds to when he stops the clock. But NBA officials don't call enough floor violations to warrant raising there hand to stop the clock. Besides, they use Precision Time, so thery're the ones stopping the clock anyway. Raisning our hand gives us an extra second to think about what we're going to call. I've changed many fouls to OOB calls in the time that it takes to raise my hand or fist.

NF mechanics are designed to do what many of us have difficulty doing, slowing down.

Dan_ref · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 08:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

...I've changed many fouls to OOB calls in the time that it takes to raise my hand or fist.

And some OOB to fouls too, I would imagine.

BTW, very nice post.

JRutledge · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 06, 2001, 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I like many of the mechanics that the NBA uses. However, not all NBA mechanics would be good for NF and NCAA. The NBA referees are professional officials. They're training and continuing education is far greater than ours will ever be. As such, there are certain things that amatuer officials must do in order to slow us down and help us think.

You'll rarely ever see a double whistle on a block/charge in the NBA but it happens all the time in high school and college. Without the proper stopping of the clock, you get conflicting calls that get everybody in deep doo-doo.

I agree with you that the whistle is what the timer responds to when he stops the clock. But NBA officials don't call enough floor violations to warrant raising there hand to stop the clock. Besides, they use Precision Time, so thery're the ones stopping the clock anyway. Raisning our hand gives us an extra second to think about what we're going to call. I've changed many fouls to OOB calls in the time that it takes to raise my hand or fist.

NF mechanics are designed to do what many of us have difficulty doing, slowing down.

Perfect. Officials need to understand that the NF mechanics are the easiest to understand. It might not always make perfect sense to the NCAA and NBA officials why NF does this or that. Us NF officials are not required to go to camps every year to keep our job. NF officials do not have to move up to a certain level. Look, if someone assigns us a varsity game, we do a varsity game. If you are a college official, your evaluation process is much greater. Not only do you have to have certain experience levels, you have to have other things like, job, travel arrangements, and anything else that HS officials do not need to do certain games.

I am so tired of NCAA officials and higher trying to make NF like them. If we had the training and experience that they had, we would have similar mechanics. Look to be a HS official, you have to be 18 in most cases, not a felon, and availible. Takes a lot more than that to be a NCAA official and up.

Peace

rockyroad · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 07, 2001, 10:52am

Personally, I don't want NF to be like the NCAA mechanics - nor have I ever heard any of the people I work with on a regular basis say that either...for me, the different mechanics, positioning, coverage, etc., make it very simple to remember "whose" gym I am in that night and how the game is supposed to be called - and there are big differences there also...I think there are things that would work going from NCAA to NF, and vice-versa, but ultimately - who cares what I think about mechanics...when I am in Supervisor A's NCAA gym, I will call the game the way Supervisor A says to, and when I am in Assignor B's High School gym, I will call it the way the Fed says to...

Tim Roden · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 07, 2001, 11:55am

Personally, I would prefer having the same mechanics no matter what gym I am in. I only want to be thinking about what I want to call differently, not where I am standing or looking differently or even signaling.

mick · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 07, 2001, 08:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim Roden
Personally, I would prefer having the same mechanics no matter what gym I am in. I only want to be thinking about what I want to call differently, not where I am standing or looking differently or even signaling.

Tim,
I like the differences. It's a challenge, just like the college game is a challenge after doing Fed Hoops.
Going in that 1-1/2 early to get that proper pre-game done and putting those proper mechanics in your head for a change really is quite stimulating to me, and it gets my head in the game well before the game.
Since I only work DIII, or small college, besides Fed, I get both men's and women's from time to time. Working those and high school, I like to get those specific thingys down solidly, so that I look like I belong there, and so that my partners want to work with me again.
However, one of my pet peeves is when a college ref brings his college mechanics to our floor in a high school game.
It seems there must be some a kind of "self-importance" status thing to show you're a college ref doing high school ball. Then the ref will say, "Oh, I just get into the habit." And I tell 'em, "Right. You work sixty high school games and six DII games and you get into the habit!"

It is fun!
mick