Dropped 3rd Strike - Throw to 1st

[Linknblue]

I know what the rule says about white bag/orange bag..........but............I'm seeing more and more coaches "teaching" catchers and 1st base players that when the ball is dropped the 1st base player automatically sets up in foul territory awaiting the throw and the catcher, knowing this, throws the ball to first in foul territory to get the out.

It's intentional but it's also the ball being caught in foul territory because that's where the throw was. I've never seen anyone call the runner safe because the first base player didn't tag the white bag.

I'm think'n this ain't legit....it's not an errant throw. What you guys do?

[BretMan]

Well, apparently you don't know what the rule says about the white/orange bag...because if you did, you'd know that this is a legal play!

Though I will to say that it might be dependent on what rule set you're using. For ASA and high school, their rules specifically say that if the throw is coming from foul ground that the fielder may set up on the colored base to receive the throw.

Other organizations may not clearly state this in their rules.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

I know what the rule says about white bag/orange bag..........but............I'm seeing more and more coaches "teaching" catchers and 1st base players that when the ball is dropped the 1st base player automatically sets up in foul territory awaiting the throw and the catcher, knowing this, throws the ball to first in foul territory to get the out.

It's intentional but it's also the ball being caught in foul territory because that's where the throw was. I've never seen anyone call the runner safe because the first base player didn't tag the white bag.

I'm think'n this ain't legit....it's not an errant throw. What you guys do?

Legal, all rule sets (both softball and baseball).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Legal, all rule sets (both softball and baseball).

They use orange bags in baseball??

[IRISHMAFIA]

While is isn't necessarily "illegal", how can you be sure without knowing from where the throw was coming?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the use of the orange bag is only for throws coming from foul territory on the 1B side of the field. I don't see any indication of that in the OP

[jmkupka]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

While is isn't necessarily "illegal", how can you be sure without knowing from where the throw was coming?

Maybe I'm missing something, but the use of the orange bag is only for throws coming from foul territory on the 1B side of the field. I don't see any indication of that in the OP

... as well as errant throws from elsewhere, correct? A bad throw from F6 that pulls F3 to the orange side is legal...

Based on past threads, seems to me the only time F3 can't use orange is if she sets up there before the throw is released from any fielder other than F2.

[charliej47]

The best I can remember is that if the throw pulls F3 to the foul side, then F3 can touch the orange for the out no matter who throws the ball.

[Manny A]

There's a difference between F3 setting up on the orange bag, and being pulled to the orange bag.

Mike's point is that rules on the double-first (ASA 8-2-M, FED 8-10, etc.) only allow F3 to set up on the orange bag when the throw is coming from the first-base side of foul territory. Should the uncaught third strike go to the catcher's left into the third-base side of foul ground, the rules do not allow F3 to set up on the orange bag.

The problem I have with the rules is that the BR may not know where the loose ball went. If she sees F3 set up on the orange side on an uncaught third strike, and she beats the throw and touches only the white bag, is she susceptible to an appeal for missing first if the throw came from the third-base side of foul territory? Or would you rule obstruction on F3, even if she is well into foul territory (her foot is touching the side of the bag furthest into foul, giving the BR a straight path at the bag)?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Manny A

The problem I have with the rules is that the BR may not know where the loose ball went. If she sees F3 set up on the orange side on an uncaught third strike, and she beats the throw and touches only the white bag, is she susceptible to an appeal for missing first if the throw came from the third-base side of foul territory? Or would you rule obstruction on F3, even if she is well into foul territory (her foot is touching the side of the bag furthest into foul, giving the BR a straight path at the bag)?

8-2-M-4:
On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the base.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

8-2-M-4:
On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the base.

That means the throw is originating from the right side of the catcher in foul territory, such as near the on-deck circle next to the first base dugout.

What if the throw is coming from the opposite on-deck circle?

[BretMan]

I see what you're getting at, Manny. I know this has been discussed before, but I don't remember what the consensus was.

The rules say that the batter-runner may use the white base in cases where the defense is legitimately using the colored base, using one of the exceptions to the rule.

But they don't specifically say what happens when the defense is using the colored base in conflict with the rules and that forces the batter-runner to switch over to the white.

It seems like obstruction must come into play.

[Linknblue]

Just so we're clear...........I was talking about a dropped 3rd strike that was in front of the catcher behind the plate. BR heads to first, 1st baseman chooses to sets up on orange bag cuz runner is running inside baseline to first I suppose (or was taught this on dropped 3rd strike), catcher picks ball up in front of her behind plate and then throws to first in foul territory.........choice was to do it this way by defense, no errant throws. I suppose you could say ball was in foul territory when catcher moved to foul territory by choice to make throw.

All I'm asking is that.........Is this a play that falls under the white/orange errant throw even if it's intentional?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

Just so we're clear...........I was talking about a dropped 3rd strike that was in front of the catcher behind the plate. BR heads to first, 1st baseman chooses to sets up on orange bag cuz runner is running inside baseline to first I suppose (or was taught this on dropped 3rd strike), catcher picks ball up in front of her behind plate and then throws to first in foul territory.........choice was to do it this way by defense, no errant throws. I suppose you could say ball was in foul territory when catcher moved to foul territory by choice to make throw.

All I'm asking is that.........Is this a play that falls under the white/orange errant throw even if it's intentional?

It does not have to be an errant throw if the throw is from foul ground on the 1st base side of the field. That is, between the 1st base line and it extension and the dead ball line.

I don't recall the rules saying anything about the fielder setting up; just what part or parts of the base the fielder and runner can use.
8-2-M-4:
On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the base.

8-2-M-4:
On any force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter-runner may use either the white or colored portion of the base.

Yes, Yes, not technically a "force out"; but the wording is such to distinguish BR going to 1st from other situations.

[RKBUmp]

If the ball is behind the plate it is in foul territory and the throw would be coming from foul territory. Perfectly legal for the defense to setup in foul and take the throw on the colored portion of the base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

If the ball is behind the plate it is in foul territory and the throw would be coming from foul territory. Perfectly legal for the defense to setup in foul and take the throw on the colored portion of the base.

from foul ground on the 1st base side of the field.
That is, between the 1st base line and it extension and the dead ball line. ??????????????????