flex batting in 10th spot

[jodibuck]

This play occurred in an game played by NCAA rules. DP listed in 3rd spot on line-up card, flex properly listed in 10th spot. Coach came from travel ball and used the flex as an additional batter (EH). DP bats in her proper spot, then flex bats in the 10th spot. The flex gets a hit and scores on a hit by the lead-off batter. The defense appeals after the DP bats later in the inning. Does the run scored by the flex count? Is the flex now considered an illegal player? Do we have anything?

[shagpal]

did the defense appeal during the DP's at bat, or immediately after the DP's at bat? or had a pitch been thrown to a succeeding batter? if so, did the DP safely get on base?

Originally Posted by jodibuck

This play occurred in an game played by NCAA rules. DP listed in 3rd spot on line-up card, flex properly listed in 10th spot. Coach came from travel ball and used the flex as an additional batter (EH). DP bats in her proper spot, then flex bats in the 10th spot. The flex gets a hit and scores on a hit by the lead-off batter. The defense appeals after the DP bats later in the inning. Does the run scored by the flex count? Is the flex now considered an illegal player? Do we have anything?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jodibuck

This play occurred in an game played by NCAA rules. DP listed in 3rd spot on line-up card, flex properly listed in 10th spot. Coach came from travel ball and used the flex as an additional batter (EH). DP bats in her proper spot, then flex bats in the 10th spot. The flex gets a hit and scores on a hit by the lead-off batter. The defense appeals after the DP bats later in the inning. Does the run scored by the flex count? Is the flex now considered an illegal player? Do we have anything?

Anything the FLEX or any other improper batter does stands if another pitch has been thrown. What did they appeal?

[Andy]

Since the FLEX can only legally bat for the DP in the #3 slot, what we have here is a violation of 8.3.4.1.6, the FLEX entering the game on offense in a batting-order position other than that of the DP....the FLEX batted in place of the #1 batter.

If this is what was appealed, it can be appealed at any time. Since it was brought to the attention of the Plate Umpire by the defense and others have batted, the rulebook situtation is 8.3.4.2.3 (c). The penalty is that the illegal player is to be declared out if she is still on base and ejected. Since she was not on base at the time of the appeal, she is ejected, but all other play stands.

Batting out of order is still a possibility here...the answer to Shagpal's questions would determine that.

[MD Longhorn]

No, we have batting out of order not appealed in time.

There is no 10 spot.

If the Flex bats, it's for the DP. Always.

When #1 was due, Flex batted in place of the DP, but did it out of order. No appeal - when #1 takes a pitch, Flex's AB is legal.

#4 is now due to bat (the player after the DP), but #1 is batting. #1 completes their AB. No appeal. When #2 takes a pitch, #1's at bat is legal. And now, #2 is batting in the proper position.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No, we have batting out of order not appealed in time.

Based on the information given, I disagree.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There is no 10 spot.

If the Flex bats, it's for the DP. Always.

Again, I disagree. The DP spot is the only legal place in the batting order for the FLEX to bat, but the FLEX can certainly show up to bat anywhere (as in the OP).

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When #1 was due, Flex batted in place of the DP, but did it out of order.

Unless the coach announced FLEX was batting for DP, you cannot assume that was his intent. In fact, the OP makes it clear that was NOT his intent. The coach was confusing FLEX with EP. This is an illegal player, and FLEX is ejected (NCAA 8.2.3 EFFECT).

If this was ASA, the ruling would be similar. An illegal player. ASA 4-3-I, ASA Case Play 4.7-3.

[MD Longhorn]

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here is a similar/related Approved Ruling from Ask Dee.

A.R.8.3.4^2: The Flex bats in a spot in the batting order other than the DP’s spot and before the next pitch, the defense appeals to the umpire for a batting out-of-order violation. They are correct in that the previous batter is not the correct batter but she is an illegal player, not a legal player guilty of batting out-of-order. Should the umpire act on the appealed batting out-of-order or enforce the penalty for illegal player?
RULING: A coach making an appeal must reasonably identify the rule violation in question. While not required to identify the rule by number or page, the player and terminology for the rule in question have to be correctly communicated to the umpire. To avoid miscommunication, the plate umpire should show the defensive coach the lineup card and have him/her walk through the complaint giving the coach every opportunity to see the mistake and better articulate the appeal. In the unlikely event that the coach still only appeals batting out-of-order, the plate umpire shall enforce the effect for the appealed batting out-of-order. (See also Rule 11.10.)

The point being that we cannot assume the FLEX batting was intended as an unreported sub for the DP and batting-out-of-order. To make that assumption basically makes the rule declaring the violation (FLEX entering on offense for someone other than DP) an illegal player an impossible occurrence. Now, if the coach reported FLEX playing offense for DP, and THEN the FLEX batted-out-of-order, sure, that's all it is.

In the case of the OP, if they are appealing an illegal player, they have one; and Andy's cite is spot on. If they are appealing batting-out-of-order, then we need more specific information regarding the time of appeal, etc.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

In NCAA, she absolutely must report that; failure to do that is an unreported substitution, and there is a significant penalty in NCAA (compared to FED slap on the wrist warning, and ASA only penalty if appealed before first pitch to next batter). In NCAA, she remains unreported and is never legally in the game until she is reported, and the offended coach can wait until the most substantive penalty can apply.

Also, please note that an unreported sub is one that has the right to legally be where she is, they just didn't tell the plate umpire. The FLEX entering for someone other than the DP is NOT unreported, it is an illegal player.

[CecilOne]

This has been a confusion as long as FLEX has existed and we have discussed it several times without a real resolution.

In the OP, by the time the DP bats, there have been three violations. If the #1 batter batted after the FLEX, then the FLEX either
- illegally batted or
- BOO for the DP, which means the #1 also BOO.

The OP implies the appeal was after the DP batted before anything else occurred. The DP was not replaced by the FLEX if she batted and is not BOO at that point because she followed #2 batter.

So, the penalty has to be for the FLEX batting at all, as above depending on rule set.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

Well . . . Yes I would require it (NCAA rule citations)

8.2.3 Uncharged Substitution
The flex may go in and out of the DP’s position in the batting order any time and any number of times. This action counts as a substitution for the DP. This movement in and out of the game must be reported to the plate umpire to avoid an unreported player violation. (See Rule 8.3.3.)

8.2.4 Charged Substitution
8.2.4.1 The flex is charged with a substitution only when she is taken out of the defensive lineup. Movement in and out of the DP’s position in the batting order does not count but must be reported to the plate umpire.

This is an Illegal Player (8.3.4), specifically 8.3.4.1.6. The crux to this is when she can be discovered, as illegal players can be discovered while on base (before and after pitches scenarios are provided in 8.3.4.2). However, there is no mention if not on base (after a score). This can get rather strange, as the team in violation cannot make this right without penalty (8.3.4.2.1 Effect).

(sorry, not to hijack but) However, there can be a combination of rules if the timing is correct. Say the flex bats after the 9th batter and reaches base. We now have an illegal player (as long as the DP is not the first hitter, else just an unreported player). The number one batter now bats and reaches base. Before the next pitch, the coach appeals both an illegal player - the flex for batting for someone other than the DP - AND batting out of order because the flex batted for the leadoff hitter, hence the second batter is now the proper hitter.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

No, we have batting out of order not appealed in time.

There is no 10 spot.

If the Flex bats, it's for the DP. Always.

When #1 was due, Flex batted in place of the DP, but did it out of order. No appeal - when #1 takes a pitch, Flex's AB is legal.

#4 is now due to bat (the player after the DP), but #1 is batting. #1 completes their AB. No appeal. When #2 takes a pitch, #1's at bat is legal. And now, #2 is batting in the proper position.

Mike....is your reply based on NCAA rules?
I'm assuming that it is but wanted to make sure.
I'm just trying to properly follow your take on the sitch vs. Andy's, Steve's and Cecil's.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Mike....is your reply based on NCAA rules?
I'm assuming that it is but wanted to make sure.
I'm just trying to properly follow your take on the sitch vs. Andy's, Steve's and Cecil's.

It was not. I can't read. I sit corrected.

I'll shut up now.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the flex approaches the plate to bat in the DP's normal spot, are you requiring the coach to come tell you that they are batting the flex for the DP? No. When the flex comes to bat ... it is for the DP.

Yes. Otherwise, it is an unreported substitute.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

We have an illegal player when the DP and flex are in the game at the same time. Doesn't sound to be the case here as the flex scored on the 1st batter after her.

FLEX batting for anyone other than DP is an improper (illegal) player, by the rules cited.

We rule based on what the players and coach actually did, not based on what we might assume they must have meant to do. In the OP's situation, as presented, the coach intended for FLEX to bat in the #10 spot, just as he had been doing in whatever rules they were using in travel ball (USSSA, maybe?). To let the coach off the hook for what he actually did by assuming he must have meant to have FLEX bat for DP, but forgot to tell you, and then FLEX bats out of order is hearing hoof beats in West Texas and assuming they must be from zebras.

When FLEX batted, she was an illegal player. Now, can that still be penalized 3 batters later after FLEX has scored? Ejection would still be correct, it seems to me, and all play would stand that resulted from the FLEX at-bat.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

This has been a confusion as long as FLEX has existed and we have discussed it several times without a real resolution. ...

Here's a situation for you, Cecil.

DP is the #1 batter in the order. FLEX is, of course, listed as #10. What if FLEX comes to bat after B9, gets a hit, and before DP (who is on-deck) comes to bat, the defense appeals BOO?