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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 16, 2014, 11:17am
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Let's not get too far astray; we already have people inferring something the rule neither says nor appears to be the topic/purpose of this particular rule. The rule clearly relates to batters delaying, attempting to control the pitcher's timing, or to disconcert the pitcher.

Here's what the rule says (and doesn't):
1) It talks about whether the pitcher continues legally or doesn't. It doesn't relate at all to a batter avoiding a pitch already legally delivered. The catcher is required to be in the box at the time of the pitch, and can then move to the ball; the batter should be given the same restriction and resulting reaction to the location of the ball. If the batter knows the ball is coming at her BEFORE the pitcher delivers, well, this rule doesn't protect a batter with clairvoyency, she stepped out while the pitcher was still in the act of delivering.
2) It says what it says; it doesn't say no pitch delivered in this circumstance can be illegal, it names two specific things (stops or hesitates) that shall not be an illegal pitch. No other form of illegal pitch is superceded by this rule.
3) When it says the ball remains alive, it should be understood ONLY that this specific action doesn't make the ball dead. Anything that follows that would create a dead ball still creates a dead ball.

For the following sequence, assume the batter does either step out or hold hand up:
a) Pitcher already legally delivered (released) the ball. Call the pitch. (I'm thinking the batter's height may be liberally considered if the ball is over the plate and the batter is no longer in the box.) Enforce every/any other rule that may apply exactly like any OTHER legal pitch.
b) Pitcher already illegally delivered the ball. Call the illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time an illegal pitch is called.
c) Pitcher stops or hesitates. No pitch. This rule says so.
d) Pitcher continues and legally pitches the ball. Live ball strike. This rule says so.
e) Pitcher continues and illegally pitches the ball. Strike called, but also an illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on an illegal pitch.
f) Pitcher continues, legally pitches the ball which hits the batter. Dead ball strike. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on a batter HBP.
g) Pitcher continues, legally pitches the ball, which isn't caught in flight. Live ball strike. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time an uncaught strike is called.

Too many of you seem to be overthinking this rule and its' application.
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Last edited by AtlUmpSteve; Sun Feb 16, 2014 at 11:19am.
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Old Mon Feb 17, 2014, 11:35am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Let's not get too far astray; we already have people inferring something the rule neither says nor appears to be the topic/purpose of this particular rule. The rule clearly relates to batters delaying, attempting to control the pitcher's timing, or to disconcert the pitcher.

Here's what the rule says (and doesn't):
1) It talks about whether the pitcher continues legally or doesn't. It doesn't relate at all to a batter avoiding a pitch already legally delivered. The catcher is required to be in the box at the time of the pitch, and can then move to the ball; the batter should be given the same restriction and resulting reaction to the location of the ball. If the batter knows the ball is coming at her BEFORE the pitcher delivers, well, this rule doesn't protect a batter with clairvoyency, she stepped out while the pitcher was still in the act of delivering.
2) It says what it says; it doesn't say no pitch delivered in this circumstance can be illegal, it names two specific things (stops or hesitates) that shall not be an illegal pitch. No other form of illegal pitch is superceded by this rule.
3) When it says the ball remains alive, it should be understood ONLY that this specific action doesn't make the ball dead. Anything that follows that would create a dead ball still creates a dead ball.

For the following sequence, assume the batter does either step out or hold hand up:
a) Pitcher already legally delivered (released) the ball. Call the pitch. (I'm thinking the batter's height may be liberally considered if the ball is over the plate and the batter is no longer in the box.) Enforce every/any other rule that may apply exactly like any OTHER legal pitch.
b) Pitcher already illegally delivered the ball. Call the illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time an illegal pitch is called.
c) Pitcher stops or hesitates. No pitch. This rule says so.
d) Pitcher continues and legally pitches the ball. Live ball strike. This rule says so.
e) Pitcher continues and illegally pitches the ball. Strike called, but also an illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on an illegal pitch.
f) Pitcher continues, legally pitches the ball which hits the batter. Dead ball strike. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on a batter HBP.
g) Pitcher continues, legally pitches the ball, which isn't caught in flight. Live ball strike. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time an uncaught strike is called.

Too many of you seem to be overthinking this rule and its' application.
Thanks for the clarity. Can I add one more to the list from up above?

Pitcher drops the ball. I'm not sure whether to call that hesitation and get c or d since it is a legal pitch (just not so sure I'd call it a delivery).
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 17, 2014, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Thanks for the clarity. Can I add one more to the list from up above?

Pitcher drops the ball. I'm not sure whether to call that hesitation and get c or d since it is a legal pitch (just not so sure I'd call it a delivery).
Judgment. If hesitates or reacts at all (and give the benefit to this one, it is the obviously the easier sell), no pitch; if simply slips during continuous motion, uncaught strike.
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:29am
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Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
e) Pitcher continues and illegally pitches the ball. Strike called, but also an illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on an illegal pitch.
Steve, I'm extremely reluctant to disagree with you. However, this one line (and this line only) is in disagreement with every clinic I've ever attended. The way it's been explained to us, numerous times, is that if the pitcher continues and pitches the ball, it cannot be illegal, and is a strike - the explanation of WHY is that the batter's actions could have caused whatever illegality happened (the example often used is the batter's actions causing pitching missteps like leaps or landing outside the 24), and TPTB don't want to create a situation where the umpire has to decide whether the batters actions caused the misstep or not - the assumption (and the reason for the "the pitch is ruled to be legal" part of the rule) is that it DID cause the misstep - removing the need for judgement on our part.
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:48pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Steve, I'm extremely reluctant to disagree with you. However, this one line (and this line only) is in disagreement with every clinic I've ever attended. The way it's been explained to us, numerous times, is that if the pitcher continues and pitches the ball, it cannot be illegal, and is a strike - the explanation of WHY is that the batter's actions could have caused whatever illegality happened (the example often used is the batter's actions causing pitching missteps like leaps or landing outside the 24), and TPTB don't want to create a situation where the umpire has to decide whether the batters actions caused the misstep or not - the assumption (and the reason for the "the pitch is ruled to be legal" part of the rule) is that it DID cause the misstep - removing the need for judgement on our part.
Mike, why can it not be in illegal pitch? Not saying it always is, but a simple continuation doesn't mean the pitch cannot be illegal.

Personally, I think the ruling is just as "lazy umpire excuse" as the automatic strike for not pulling that bat out of the strike zone.
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Mike, why can it not be in illegal pitch? Not saying it always is, but a simple continuation doesn't mean the pitch cannot be illegal.
Because we're to assume (right or wrong) that it was the stepping out that caused the illegal act. We're to not penalize the pitcher for any clumsiness that occurs after the batter disrupted things by stepping out.

Let me ask you, in a simple continuation, what kind of illegal act are you envisioning that a pitcher could commit AFTER beginning her delivery that you think should (not is ... just should, in your opinion) be not blamed on the batter stepping out during the delivery?
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
For the following sequence, assume the batter does either step out or hold hand up:
.
.
.
e) Pitcher continues and illegally pitches the ball. Strike called, but also an illegal pitch. Enforce exactly like any OTHER time a strike is called on an illegal pitch.
So you're saying that the illegal pitch penalty trumps the batter's infraction. Interesting. At least that's how I read it; surely you wouldn't suggest that the batter get a ball and a strike added to her count!

I guess I'm just having a hang-up understanding why two illegal pitch situations (pitcher hesitates, pitcher stops) are excused, but the other illegal pitch infractions are enforced.
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 12:53pm
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Originally Posted by Manny A View Post
So you're saying that the illegal pitch penalty trumps the batter's infraction. Interesting. At least that's how I read it; surely you wouldn't suggest that the batter get a ball and a strike added to her count!

I guess I'm just having a hang-up understanding why two illegal pitch situations (pitcher hesitates, pitcher stops) are excused, but the other illegal pitch infractions are enforced.
There's a reason you're having this hang-up...

Just clarified with a state guy (I would put his/her name, except for the "Please don't put my name on that site at all" part of his/her email - but this is about 1 level down from the highest I could think of to ask --- a person that leads breakout sessions at clinics). In his/her words, and I'm copy/pasting here ... "If the batter steps out after the pitcher has begun her delivery, there can't be an illegal pitch. If they deliver, it's legal. If they don't, it's a no pitch."
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Old Tue Feb 18, 2014, 05:27pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
There's a reason you're having this hang-up...

Just clarified with a state guy (I would put his/her name, except for the "Please don't put my name on that site at all" part of his/her email - but this is about 1 level down from the highest I could think of to ask --- a person that leads breakout sessions at clinics). In his/her words, and I'm copy/pasting here ... "If the batter steps out after the pitcher has begun her delivery, there can't be an illegal pitch. If they deliver, it's legal. If they don't, it's a no pitch."
Same interpretation has been given here in So Cal from the State NFHS Rules Interpreter.
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Old Wed Feb 19, 2014, 10:28am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
There's a reason you're having this hang-up...

Just clarified with a state guy (I would put his/her name, except for the "Please don't put my name on that site at all" part of his/her email - but this is about 1 level down from the highest I could think of to ask --- a person that leads breakout sessions at clinics). In his/her words, and I'm copy/pasting here ... "If the batter steps out after the pitcher has begun her delivery, there can't be an illegal pitch. If they deliver, it's legal. If they don't, it's a no pitch."
All due respect, but I've experienced a few occasions where "a state guy" was wrong with his/her rule interpretations. Heck, we had a national staff umpire tell us at a recent clinic that a batter's foot touching the batter's box line does not constitute being within the box.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. Anything that happens after the batter steps out except where a pitcher hesitates or doesn't deliver the pitch is supposed to be a legal delivery? If that were the case, then there'd be no reason for the words "legally delivers" in the book. Just strike the word "legally" if that is the true intent of the rule.
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Old Wed Feb 19, 2014, 07:48pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
There's a reason you're having this hang-up...

Just clarified with a state guy (I would put his/her name, except for the "Please don't put my name on that site at all" part of his/her email - but this is about 1 level down from the highest I could think of to ask --- a person that leads breakout sessions at clinics). In his/her words, and I'm copy/pasting here ... "If the batter steps out after the pitcher has begun her delivery, there can't be an illegal pitch. If they deliver, it's legal. If they don't, it's a no pitch."
So, if the pitcher exceeds two rotations, the pitch is to be called a strike? Or crow hops, it's a strike? Or steps halfway to 1B, it's a strike?
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Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 07:52pm.
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:51am
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Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
So, if the pitcher exceeds two rotations, the pitch is to be called a strike? Or crow hops, it's a strike? Or steps halfway to 1B, it's a strike?
Conceivably, yes. The videos (2 at separate clinics) I saw showed a pitcher misstepping in a way that one would call an ugly crowhop in one case, and in the other showed her misstepping and landing outside the 24 (not "halfway to first" ... but outside the 24 is outside the 24, no matter how far). I honestly can't imagine this occurring in real life and having a picture rotate an extra time.

Seems to me the easier solution, if they want to simply penalize the batter by a strike in almost every case, is to get rid of the "if she stops or hesitates it's a no pitch" part and just simply call it immediately dead if the batter steps out during a delivery and call it a penalty strike. If they are wanting (as clinics and our interpretor say) any missteps by the pitcher to be blamed on the hitter... perhaps they should also blame the pitcher stopping or hesitating on the hitter as well. More consistent.
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