The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2009, 04:35pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 158
Third Strike "Legally Caught"

Having trouble with understanding - "Legally Caught" as in reference to 6.05 B, "If a foul-tip first strikes the catcher’s glove and then goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector, before the ball touches the ground, it is a strike, and if third strike, batter is out. If smothered against his body or protector, it is a catch provided the ball struck the catcher’s glove or hand first."

Not sure what it means, "...goes on through and is caught by both hands against his body or protector....."

I thought a foul tip was a direct stike to the catcher's glove and had to be caught. It seems the catcher can bobble the ball before it hits the ground.

If there is an old link to this subject please advise so we can allow for other discussions.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2009, 04:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Memphis TN area
Posts: 158
Foul Tip Definition

FOUL TIP - is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play

I guess this is where I get crossed up, with this definition.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2009, 04:40pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Question

JPaco45,

If the tipped ball deflects off the catcher's hand or mitt (i.e. not a "clean catch") but he is ultimately able to gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches the ground (or anyone/anything else) it is a legal catch and a foul tip - despite any interim "bobbling" of the ball.

If it goes straight through to his chest/knee/mask whatever without touching his hand or mitt, it is not a catch (nor a foul tip) even if he does gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches anything.

It is simply an "uncaught foul".

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2009, 10:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: The 503
Posts: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
JPaco45,

If the tipped ball deflects off the catcher's hand or mitt (i.e. not a "clean catch") but he is ultimately able to gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches the ground (or anyone/anything else) it is a legal catch and a foul tip - despite any interim "bobbling" of the ball.

If it goes straight through to his chest/knee/mask whatever without touching his hand or mitt, it is not a catch (nor a foul tip) even if he does gain secure possession in his hand or glove before the ball touches anything.

It is simply an "uncaught foul".

JM
JM said it very nicely. I once had a game end on a foul tip that went glove-bare hand-CP-thigh-grabbed w/bare hand. But it never touched the ground.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:11am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WI
Posts: 825
JV game Tuesday. I am BU. 3rd strike foul tip goes off F2's glove, hits F2 just above protector on collarbone, then drops down neck opening and is trapped between chest protector and his body. Chaos as PU declares a catch and batter out. OC appeals call - saying no catch. PU call me in.

Then - the best thing in the world happens. As I am heading in - batter is bored by what's going on - has never touched 1st, turns and heads into dugout. I told coach and PU everything is now a moot point as batter is definately out when he goes into dugout.

After game PU and I talking and decided that since F2 was wearing gear properly and was fastened properly, that it would have been a catch since ball never touched ground and when he reached in and pulled ball out he had control. He did not "use" his gear improperly.

I felt good about it then - but have had some doubts later. Input?
__________________
When I want your opinion - I'll give it to you!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:22am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Sorry dude, you blew that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule 8-3-3
Each runner is awarded...

(f) one base beyond the last legally acquired base, if in the umpire’s judgment
the runner was attempting to advance at the time the ball becomes lodged
in an offensive player’s uniform or equipment. If the lodged ball occurs during
play when the batter-runner was attempting to reach first base, the batter-
runner will be awarded first base. Preceding runners will be awarded
bases needed to complete the award.
Also, the BR's leaving the field during a dead ball (as you're walking toward PU) would not constitute an out.

In your play, this is a foul ball. Runners stay put unless they were stealing on the pitch, in which case they advance one base.

Edited to add: you can't rule this a catch, because F2 did not securely possess the ball in his hand or mitt.
__________________
Cheers,
mb

Last edited by mbyron; Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:25am.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WI
Posts: 825
The problem was the batter runner never really advanced directly to 1st or towards first along his legal path. He stood at the plate, and when coach came out - he waited a minute - then walked towards dugout opening 1st base side. He was never closer than 70 feet from 1st base and was not even looking like he was going there. He was even still carrying his bat.

As I stated before upon further thought yesterday I thought we bungled the "catch" decision. Didn't look up in book as rule book/gear is in my car my wife took to Detroit and won't have it until tomorrow. Thanks for rule reference. I think I was dwelling on his not using equipment improperly
__________________
When I want your opinion - I'll give it to you!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WI
Posts: 825
I've learned. Thanks for the quick replies. It was nagging at me - especially not being able to look up. I already left a message for a couple guys I work with to see if I could get them to look up answer or let me borrow their books for an hour or two. Fortunately, this did not have any effect on outcome of game. He was on the winning team in a 9-0 game.
__________________
When I want your opinion - I'll give it to you!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by chartrusepengui View Post
JV game Tuesday. I am BU. 3rd strike foul tip goes off F2's glove, hits F2 just above protector on collarbone, then drops down neck opening and is trapped between chest protector and his body. Chaos as PU declares a catch and batter out. OC appeals call - saying no catch. PU call me in.

Then - the best thing in the world happens. As I am heading in - batter is bored by what's going on - has never touched 1st, turns and heads into dugout. I told coach and PU everything is now a moot point as batter is definately out when he goes into dugout.

After game PU and I talking and decided that since F2 was wearing gear properly and was fastened properly, that it would have been a catch since ball never touched ground and when he reached in and pulled ball out he had control. He did not "use" his gear improperly.

I felt good about it then - but have had some doubts later. Input?
I think you kicked it twice.

1) The batter never became a BR, so he can't be out for entering the dugout.

2) It's not a catch, so it's not a foul tip. It's just a foul ball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 09:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: WI
Posts: 825
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I think you kicked it twice.

1) The batter never became a BR, so he can't be out for entering the dugout.

2) It's not a catch, so it's not a foul tip. It's just a foul ball.
True - the same bad decision led to a double kick. Still trying to learn - but have a ways to go yet. I guess what started my misguided thinking was when the PU initially called "catch - batter out", and the chaos ensued, I got caught up in it, thinking then if "no catch" - batter was a batter runner, and when entering dugout was out. A quick easy fix that continued to bother me even after conversation with PU after game.

I need to slow down more and think things through in these situations as I have learned to do in basketball. Umping baseball is still pretty new to me and if I don't slow down I can get flustered. It's only happened a couple of times but still a couple of times too many.
__________________
When I want your opinion - I'll give it to you!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 09:49am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
In your play, this is a foul ball. Runners stay put unless they were stealing on the pitch, in which case they advance one base.
I'm trying to figure out how you can have a foul ball AND award bases to runners.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 10:11am
Stop staring at me swan.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,974
This isn't a lodged ball situation at all right? Once we have "no catch" on the...at one point, "foul tip"...is that the right way to handle this?
__________________
It's like Deja Vu all over again
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2009, 08:27pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by yawetag View Post
I'm trying to figure out how you can have a foul ball AND award bases to runners.
You're right, you can't. I wrote my response in 5 stages as I was figuring it out, and didn't return to delete that piece. The runners would advance if stealing and a pitched ball lodged in the catcher's equipment. A foul ball is just a foul ball, even if it lodges.
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"He caught it in the air, Coach." Adam Basketball 4 Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:15am
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight pizanno Basketball 27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am
Repeated "Dropped Second Strike" Activity by Coach? IamMatt Softball 9 Sun May 11, 2008 07:09pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1